beating the ultra loose game

[Joe Tall]

I can't help but take this comment as a condescending attitude. There is no way a simle "value bet a lot" statement can beat my game. If you can beat it, its because you use every last trick, every last piece of know-how and hand reading skill you have.

Condescending and Dynasty, never, just reality, brutal reality. Scott, I have to agree with Dyn, here. I'm sure Dyn uses every trick and all his hand reading skills in addition to value-betting.

And value betting doesn't prevent 7 people from sucking out on you smarty.

True, but in the long run it will score you a big advantage.

Don't trivialize how to play a game like this. Perhaps you've never really played in one?

I'm sure Dynasty didn't jump into the 10/20 at the Mirage after seeing the WSOP on ESPN one day, everyone works the ranks I assume.

I've learned something as of late. Recently, I've become a steady player at the loose 4/8 at foxwoods. I have had more winning sessions than losing. My last 3 sessions I've played my best, however, I felt the worst on the way home from these sessions than I did a losing one. Why? I was going over in my head where I missed value-bets. The next time down, I missed less. This last time, my biggest winning session, I missed 2 bets I could count in a 7 hr session, and I couldn't get them out of my head on the way home. Therefore, I feel missing opportunities in these types of loose games are CRUCIAL to long term success.

Miami, eh? I've got a friend I need to visit on South Beach. I'll go if Dyn can't make it. [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] I'll brush up on my Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese, I hear the women love tall, blonde, blue-eyed Americans. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Peace,
Joe

[ResidentParanoid]

Right on the point:

If you have a hand that is likely to be best, bet or raise it.

Don't try to steal a pot with 6 to play behind you. That's just dumb.

At best, you can use position to try to make folks make bigger mistakes by calling 2 or more cold when they shouldn't, or harm their odds by raising/check-raising appropriately.

And most important, you have to show down a hand to win almost all of the time. So when you aren't hitting anything, be content to fold.

[lil']

You should play the 5-10! The skill level varies, but it can be just as good as the 4-8. Plus, there are a lot of killed pots, so you get to play 10-20 against bad players. Fun!

[SoBeDude]

I live on Ocean Drive in South Beach. You must look me up if you come this way. I'd be happy to introduce you to my game as well [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

But like Dyn, I think you're missing my points. For starters, if he's using all his abilities, then don't trivialize what it takes to beat this game by saying "all" you need to do is value bet.

Secondly there are loose games, and there are LOOSE games. Playing the 4-8 game at Foxwoods is nothing like the 12-handed super-fish game I play. These really loose games are a big challenge and provide quite a large SD swing.

And no, even when 7 people see the flop, that doesn't mean 7 people see the river! The game where that happens is a fantasy, and would be easy to beat. when 7-8 people see the flop, the best 3-4 hands then keep playing.

And raising UTG with AQ and getting 3 fish calling you is far, far different than getting 6 or 7 fish calling you.

And I'd offer that your personal mental state - the ability to stay on your "A" game in the face of a string of bankroll shriveling bad beats - is far more important than the last "value bet"...especially when that CS on the other end of the table just hit their second pair with their j8o (after calling 2 cold preflop and flopping an 8)

And yea, I know they're horrible. And I know they never maximize their good hands, and they slowplay at the wrong time and bitch about the bad beat. And call with horrible hands. And they'll never make money playing poker. Thats all irrelevant.

Just my thoughts,

-Scott

[Dynasty]

And I really think you're underestimating the implied collusion when you raise UTG and get 7 callers.

The more I think about it, the more I think the fear around implied collusion is just BS. The collective field usually has the odds to call. But, their odds are not that great and your making loads of money on their calls.

Let's say you raise UTG with QQ and get those 7 callers. The flop comes T, 6, 2 rainbow.

These hands are out against you: A9, JT, 98, 76, 44, and total cheese. That's 5 opponents drawing live on the flop to 15 collective outs.

With 8.5 big bets in the pot when you bet the flop, your 5 collective opponents are getting 3.4:1 to call 2.5 big bets. With 37 unseen cards, they are only 1.5:1 to improve on the turn. If you get in a check-raise on the flop, the entire collective field is barely getting the right price to see the turn.

Assuming you bet the flop and everyone calls, there will be 11 big bets in the pot going to the turn. Let's say a blank deuce hits the turn.

When you bet the turn, you will be putting the 12th big bet into the pot. The field has to call 5 big bets and are now only getting 2.4:1 on their calls. They have the odds. But, you are making a lot on those calls.

[SoBeDude]

How convenient! To justify your position with a picture-perfect flop for your hand...

A monkey can play a hand with an overpair. How about some real-world hands?

How about make it jacks (or queens), same number of callers, with an Ace and King on the flop. Or just pick one. An ace or a king. 7 callers. still feel good?

Or how about JJ on a t-high flop. you bet out. all call. Then the ace or king hits on the turn?

now in a reasonable game with one or two callers, you raise with JJ or QQ and one overcard flops, you're still playable. Not in the super-loose game. (and especially in my 12-hander super-loose game) You're suddenly drawing to a 2-outer.

-Scott

[JTG51]

You're suddenly drawing to a 2-outer.

So what's so hard about folding a 2-outer?

I know I'm over simplifying a bit, but obviously you should be far less likely to continue with JJ on an A high flop against 7 opponents than you would with 1 or 2 opponents. With that any callers you may have the odds to see the turn when you are behind, but it's OK to check and fold on the flop after raising preflop or check and call then fold on the turn.

Just because all of your loose opponents want to see the river every hand doesn't mean you have to also.

[Dynasty]

How convenient! To justify your position with a picture-perfect flop for your hand...

The whole point of the post was to show how the fear of implied collusion is BS. I gave the field 15 outs which means they are a favorite to win the hand. It's hardly a picture-perfect flop in that kind of game. The fact that you didn't understand that really understates your problem.

How about make it jacks (or queens), same number of callers, with an Ace and King on the flop.

You check and fold. Possibly, you call one small bet to spike a set. If you can't play QQ on an Ace/King-high flop, then you've got huge problems in your game.

The problem of implied collusion isn't when overcards come on the flop. It's when playes hit their outs on the later streets.

Or how about JJ on a t-high flop. you bet out. all call. Then the ace or king hits on the turn?

This is no different than it coming on the flop. You need to identify the outs your opponents are likely to have. Aces are dangerous cards. Play appropriately.

Not in the super-loose game. (and especially in my 12-hander super-loose game) You're suddenly drawing to a 2-outer.

When you are drawing to two outs, you fold.

So, perhaps I need to revise my first post:

I always ask how a good player can't beat these games. The simple answer is to value bet a lot and fold when you're beat.

Your problem seems that you either don't know when you are beat or are paying off regularly when you are.

[SoBeDude]

So what's so hard about folding a 2-outer?

Who is saying it's hard to fold?

I thought I was discussing the difficulty of making money in an ultra-loose game. And when you make an investment in a hand thats no good, or course get out. but that still didn't make you any money.

-Scott

[JTG51]

Who is saying it's hard to fold?

Well, you certainly implied it when you mocked Dynasty for picking an easy example (the QQ that a monkey could have played) then gave your counter example.

I thought I was discussing the difficulty of making money in an ultra-loose game.

So did I.

And when you make an investment in a hand thats no good, or course get out. but that still didn't make you any money.

Of course it did. Every correct decision you make at the poker table makes you money, just like every bad decision costs you money.