A routine fold?

[deception5]

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would you play this HU?

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Yes, there is no concern of getting between a lag raising war when I hit top pair. And top pair is more likely to hold up heads up.

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if you were on the button and 3 people limp and CO raises, would you fold- it is 2 bets to you and you're even coldcalling?

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A trivially easy call. Position makes all the difference in the world. I know that it's going to be a very multiway pot. If it's 3 bets to me on the flop I can muck. If CO bets the flop I can face the field with 2 cold if I hit.

When you limp in in early position you don't know how multiway it's going to be or how many bets it's going to be to you.

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what if you were in SB with 2 limps, Button raises you fold- that's seen just like cold calling? that is 2 bets isn't it? what's the difference at this point?

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1.5 bets. And it's closer.

[car ramrod]

I don't mind playing this hand, but I personally don't like it utg. There was no limp before him, and no way to know if it was going to be multiway.

Also, his read was the table is very aggressive pf. If I am playing this hand, I want to get in for 1 bet. I don't think its a mistake to call a raise, if there are 4 or more in the pot already.

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To play against a raise however, you must be sure the pot will be multiway

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I don't like this line. If you are limping utg, you have no way to know if a raise is coming, and thus no way to know if it is going to be multiway.

So, I'm not completely disagreeing with you, or ssh for that matter. But, for me, I like to have better position, and know at least 1 or 2 limpers are coming along. Or at least know that the table is loose passive enough to be able to limp here.

Table selection can solve this.

[Bodhi]

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If you are limping utg, you have no way to know if a raise is coming, and thus no way to know if it is going to be multiway.

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but, but, but...
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PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed)

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Really??? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] The game is comparable to party .5/1, and seeing everyone fold to a preflop raise is very rare indeed.

[car ramrod]

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but, but, but...


PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 han


Really??? The game is comparable to party .5/1, and seeing everyone fold to a preflop raise is very rare indeed.

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I understand that, but I am basing this on:
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This table has been one of the most aggressive I've seen at Stars .25/.50. At least as far as preflop is concerned--

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[Bodhi]

Aggressive isn't the same as tight. I could care less if someone raises behind me when I limp utg with JTs if 4-5 people are going to cold-call behind him. However, in this specific hand I would prefer a few more callers behind the raiser, but it's still not that bad.

[@bsolute_luck]

regarding the table selection and OP's reads:

yeah, i guess i should back off a bit. part of my post was to respond to Aaron's thoughts:
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No, I still don't want to pay two bets to see a 4-handed flop with JTs OOP. It's not that strong of a hand. Unless it's 6-7 players to a flop for two bets, I think limping this is a losing proposition

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For one bet, it's fine. But for two bets, it's not. JTs needs some implied odds to help it along, and implied odds are cut in half when you need to invest twice as much preflop. Even against LAGs who may pay off more than other players, this hand is going to be problematic OOP.

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and the goofy thought of " you don't know where the raise will come from and if it'll be multiway"- isn't that part of the gamble? maybe the guy next to you has AA and blows out the field after you. maybe the entire table limps. that's just the game.

and it seems we are getting hung up on the semantics of the OP's description of the table and players and focus on each part as we feel necessary to enforce our view. let me quote part of the table selection I like:

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The first seven hands I saw were raised preflop, but it had quieted down the last orbit or two.

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orbit or 2- umm...that's a lot of hands. LAG raises K9o, common, we should be playing this hand against him. nowhere in the table description did it mention how many average saw the flop because if it is 3 or more, we have ourselves a multiway pot the majority of the time and well worth playing this hand, especially if a player is raising K9o.

and preflop raise the first 7 hands: hell, what do you think happens at most tables? now if he had said, "preflop was typically 3-bet and capped", then i will happily fold this hand, but all that is said is that it was raised preflop. welcome to the world of Texas Hold 'em.

but, if you guys don't want to play it, that's fine. i just wanted to emphasize that critizing the OP's preflop play based on your personal preference is incorrect and i have provided the proof i think should convince at least the OP, that his preflop play is fine.

[car ramrod]

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and the goofy thought of " you don't know where the raise will come from and if it'll be multiway"- isn't that part of the gamble? maybe the guy next to you has AA and blows out the field after you. maybe the entire table limps. that's just the game.


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That is part of the gamble, but for me, its less of a gamble if I am in better position. This way I get to how most of the action takes place before I limp in.

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but, if you guys don't want to play it, that's fine. i just wanted to emphasize that critizing the OP's preflop play based on your personal preference is incorrect and i have provided the proof i think should convince at least the OP, that his preflop play is fine.

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Yes, I think you make good points, as does Aaron. This way the op gets to hear different sides of it, and can make his own decisions. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Eeegah]

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and preflop raise the first 7 hands: hell, what do you think happens at most tables? now if he had said, "preflop was typically 3-bet and capped", then i will happily fold this hand, but all that is said is that it was raised preflop. welcome to the world of Texas Hold 'em.

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I should have clarified this. Many of the hands were raised, but only once. There was the occasional PF 3-bet, but in those cases the guy really did have a solid 3-betting hand.

If it had come back to me 3 bets after I'd limped I'd have folded without a second thought.

[DavidC]

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Reads: This table has been one of the most aggressive I've seen at Stars .25/.50. At least as far as preflop is concerned--action seems to slow down postflop, but the table still has maybe three LAGs and a borderline. The first seven hands I saw were raised preflop, but it had quieted down the last orbit or two.

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These are reasons to fold JTs UTG+1.

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I was going to say that, but doesn't the fact that the table's calmed down recently weigh in here somewhere?

[Rev. Good Will]

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Yeah, but if the table's loose enough, which it is, JTs utg is fine. It's not like he's going to get isolated by a raise from UTG+1 or something.

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No, I still don't want to pay two bets to see a 4-handed flop with JTs OOP. It's not that strong of a hand. Unless it's 6-7 players to a flop for two bets, I think limping this is a losing proposition.

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hmmm...interesting. if i remember, playing suited ten and higher cards is fine. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

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For one bet, it's fine. But for two bets, it's not. JTs needs some implied odds to help it along, and implied odds are cut in half when you need to invest twice as much preflop. Even against LAGs who may pay off more than other players, this hand is going to be problematic OOP.

Remember that preflop decisions are not just about the two cards in front of you.

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not to be a nit... but I always thought implied odds went up when it was raised PF, especially by somebody who will stay in the hand until showdown, betting and raising.

although that wouldn't be good for if you were drawing on the later streets... poop, I'm confused