QT...what a biotch

[NLSoldier]

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This bit I don't like. It seems like you're sacrificing value to avoid a tough decision that in reality isn't that tough. A turn 3-bet should usually mean we fold before showdown.

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You're right. I guess I just hate not seeing a showdown here and am not good enough to be able to laydown to the turn 3bet or to a river bet. I usually end up thinking "well now I have odds to hit my 5 outer" so I call the 3bet and then miss and I'm like "well now its just one bet to see showdown" so I pay off like a fish. This is def. a leak in my game.

What do you think about my comment regarding how I generally play draws and hands other than top pair on the flop. Do you think opponents are probably not paying enough attention for that to matter much?

[sthief09]

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I think raising the flop is better but waiting till the turn isn't horrible.

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Why do you think this?? IMO, waiting for the turn is a lot better.

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I don't like raising the turn at all, even if it's a blank. if you get 3-bet you fold outs, you might get a hand like AJ to fold right there, which you don't want since he'll otherwise check-call the turn, pretty often you put in 3 bets with the worst hand which negates much of the benefit of getting 3 bets from hands like JJ, and you open yourself up to a bluff. if you're going to call a 3-bet then I think it's even worse

[ALL1N]

Why is there this paranoia among good players of being 3-bet on the turn? If we peel and fold the river unimproved we've spent 3.5BB postflop, the same as getting 3-bet on the flop and calling down. If the player is such that we can't safely fold before showdown facing a turn 3-bet, then I agree that raising the flop is probably right, but these players are uncommon. Otherwise, it seems that raising the flop is sacrificing value to avoid this "tough" decision.

This is a good point that is applicable to some games:

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if you get 3-bet you fold outs, you might get a hand like AJ to fold right there, which you don't want since he'll otherwise check-call the turn

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[sthief09]

that should read "check-call the river" at the end

[wheelz]

I think, especially against a TAG who folds a lot postflop, the turn raise hurts you. No one believes a flop raise, but if you raise the turn he likely folds the smaller pps and other worse hands, or of course 3-bets or calls with better ones.

If hero did win the hand, I'd imagine it's because the guy called the turn raise with a club

[sthief09]

do you mean raising the flop?

[wheelz]

You just figure 91 hands of "folds a lot post flop" isn't enough of a read to make this a not easy value bet?

[PokerBob]

turn=icky

[irishpint]

here's a question...

you were three bet from BB and flop top pair with QT. Is there a chance you won't take it to showdown? I mean, if I raise the flop and get 3 bet is there ever a time to call and c/f the turn? would calling the flop, and then folding the turn (to the flush coming in and the overcard) be ok? If i call the turn then I have to call the river, IMO.

Back to the hand. If I get 3bet on the turn I think I can lay it down (i hope I can...I should be able to). In this case I got a free showdown out of the deal, which is nice, since I wanted to show it down. At the same time, if I'm ahead when I raise I'd still be ahead on the river so probably wouldn't want to take the free card, correct?

If my read was over a larger selection of hands I think betting the river would have been a better play- part fold equity and part value bet- what does it mean when a TAG calls your turn raise and checks to you on the river- has he pussed out?

[NLSoldier]

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here's a question...

you were three bet from BB and flop top pair with QT. Is there a chance you won't take it to showdown? I mean, if I raise the flop and get 3 bet is there ever a time to call and c/f the turn? would calling the flop, and then folding the turn (to the flush coming in and the overcard) be ok? If i call the turn then I have to call the river, IMO.

Back to the hand. If I get 3bet on the turn I think I can lay it down (i hope I can...I should be able to). In this case I got a free showdown out of the deal, which is nice, since I wanted to show it down. At the same time, if I'm ahead when I raise I'd still be ahead on the river so probably wouldn't want to take the free card, correct?



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I we raise the flop and he 3 bets there is almost no chance I'm not going to showdown. If we raise the turn and he 3bets, we really shouldnt be going to showdown but like I said in my above post, that can be a tough fold to make.



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If my read was over a larger selection of hands I think betting the river would have been a better play- part fold equity and part value bet- what does it mean when a TAG calls your turn raise and checks to you on the river- has he pussed out?

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If you bet the river it is strictly for value. I don't think there is any chance AQ is folding.