My "Try to play like Doyle Brunson In SS2 on the Party 25 Experiement" - Page 3

Rudbaeck · #21 07-02-2005, 12:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Supersystem was written with much deeper stacks in mind, especially with regard suited connectors. It was also written with tighter opponents in mind. He mentions what to do against bad players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear this all the time, but it isn't what Doyle is saying. He does say that he plays with a minimum of 200bb buy-ins, but the minimum he lists is in the 40-50bb range on the chart on page 561.

I do however think that Doyle is wrong in thinking that his style would be even reasonably effective with a 50bb buy-in.

derick · #22 07-06-2005, 12:41 PM

Hello,

Wow great insight into the Doyle Brunson style!

Thanks for all the insightful posts!

I continue to struggle with my play. To put it bluntly my play stinks.

MP2 last 50 hands is VP$IP of 33.33, PFR 0%, WtSD 18.18 W$aSD 50%

Button over the last 188 hands is VP$IP 52.13, PFR 12.77, WtSD 27.18, W$@SD 35.17

The table is about 35% VP$IP and 4% PFR.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (8 handed) converter

CO ($32.15)
Button ($32.82)
SB ($12.4)
BB ($4.4)
Hero ($22.95)
UTG+1 ($25)
MP1 ($38.52)
MP2 ($20.05)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, MP2 calls $1, 1 fold, Button calls $1, 2 folds.

Last time I had AA I checked intending to raise UTG as per Brunson.
But nobody raised and I got drawn out on.
This time I raised and got called. Would you have raised more say $1.5 or $1.25?

Flop: ($3.35) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $3, MP2 calls $3, Button calls $3.

I raise to make TPTK pay for their cards...

Turn: ($12.35) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)

What do you think of my play so far?

What would you do here?

derick · #23 07-06-2005, 01:03 PM

Here in this hand the CO is the button from the hand above, i.e. VP$IP 53%

MP3 ($15.65)
CO ($49.13)
Button ($21.6)
SB ($22.5)
Hero ($20.5)
UTG ($9.5)
UTG+1 ($66.9)
UTG+2 ($22.92)
MP1 ($0)
MP2 ($29.35)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.25, 2 folds, CO calls $0.25, 1 fold, SB (poster) completes, Hero raises to $1.25, UTG+2 calls $1.25, CO calls $1.25, SB folds.

Flop: ($4.75) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets $4.25, UTG+2 folds, CO calls $4.25.

OK I've got TPTK and a 3 flush board... bet the pot and try to take it down right?

Turn: ($13.25) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $6, CO calls $6.

[censored] he called, try to bet half the pot when a scare card came and see if he folds?

River: ($25.25) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $10, Hero folds.

Shite he called again! 4 flush on the board... I'm scared ... I expose my throat and get killed.

Final Pot: $35.25

What do you guys think of this play?

Alex/Mugaaz · #24 07-06-2005, 01:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hello,

Wow great insight into the Doyle Brunson style!

Thanks for all the insightful posts!

I continue to struggle with my play. To put it bluntly my play stinks.

MP2 last 50 hands is VP$IP of 33.33, PFR 0%, WtSD 18.18 W$aSD 50%

Button over the last 188 hands is VP$IP 52.13, PFR 12.77, WtSD 27.18, W$@SD 35.17

The table is about 35% VP$IP and 4% PFR.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (8 handed) converter

CO ($32.15)
Button ($32.82)
SB ($12.4)
BB ($4.4)
Hero ($22.95)
UTG+1 ($25)
MP1 ($38.52)
MP2 ($20.05)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, MP2 calls $1, 1 fold, Button calls $1, 2 folds.

Last time I had AA I checked intending to raise UTG as per Brunson.
But nobody raised and I got drawn out on.
This time I raised and got called. Would you have raised more say $1.5 or $1.25?

Flop: ($3.35) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $3, MP2 calls $3, Button calls $3.

I raise to make TPTK pay for their cards...

Turn: ($12.35) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)

What do you think of my play so far?

What would you do here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your play here was just fine. But you don't have to bet quite that much to punish TPTK, then again it's $25NL, theyll call anyway.

You don't have to raise more preflop, 5-6bb can work in NL25 though, but keep in mind you want callers. Everytime you bet with aces preflop YOU WANT CALLERS. Just because each caller makes you less likely to win DOESN'T MATTER.

Why didn't you include the river? I'm assuming you lost this hand. If someone drew out on you tough [censored], poker is gambling it can get rough.

You don't need a "style" at NL25. Doyle's style is probably the worst possible style for NL25.

If you are bluffing someone who won't fold, who's the bigger idiot?

amoeba · #25 07-06-2005, 01:24 PM

its good to try different styles but keep in mind that doyle played against fairly tight opposition in fairly deep stacked uncapped buy in games.

Maulik · #26 07-06-2005, 01:40 PM

with the QJ flop, you want to be careful, because that is a hand which is often overplayed and its possible that someone has a straight. The river being a King is an obvious time for a check, A10 beats you as do many other permutations.

Don't bother trying to play like Doyle at NL25, you'll get called down too often.

pokernicus · #27 07-06-2005, 05:56 PM

It'd be interesting to see how your attempt to play the Doyle S/S style works in a low-stakes game.

The hands you posted are not especially representative of the style IMHO. Basically, in both cases, the flop fit quite nicely with your hand. In one case you hit top two pair, and in the second care you're a substantial favorite to make either two pair, trips, a straight, or a flush by the river. [These fit into Doyle's saying that every now and then he would look down and have a real hand and he would get paid off because of his loose table image.]

I'm curious how much you were able to win pots without having a real hand (either by stealing the pot or by drawing out when all the money went in).

The key insight into Doyle Brunson's strategy is that in the games he played (when he wrote the book) the folding equity from aggressive play was high enough that he could afford to take the worst of it on the occasions when someone did call. I would think that you have a lot less folding equity in a small stakes game (especially since these games have more calling stations and short-stacks...)

derick · #28 07-07-2005, 04:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It'd be interesting to see how your attempt to play the Doyle S/S style works in a low-stakes game.

[/ QUOTE ]

So far it's been a huge variance, over it's tiny sample size.

First I nearly doubled my buyin
Then I lost 7/8ths of it, Yesterday I was ready to declare it a failure since I had only 1/8th of what I started with.

So I tried this.
Sit down and....
Play like a Brunson Wanna Be for a couple of orbits.
Then play like Mr. Rock Wait For The Nuts for about 4 orbits.

I remember Doyle saying something about sitting down and getting stuck a thousand when he first sits down.

I think he gives the first impression of a loose action player but changes gears after he throws a party.

So I found that going to rock mode after playing like Brunson worked really well yesterday...

[ QUOTE ]

The hands you posted are not especially representative of the style IMHO. Basically, in both cases, the flop fit quite nicely with your hand. In one case you hit top two pair, and in the second care you're a substantial favorite to make either two pair, trips, a straight, or a flush by the river. [These fit into Doyle's saying that every now and then he would look down and have a real hand and he would get paid off because of his loose table image.]

I'm curious how much you were able to win pots without having a real hand (either by stealing the pot or by drawing out when all the money went in).

The key insight into Doyle Brunson's strategy is that in the games he played (when he wrote the book) the folding equity from aggressive play was high enough that he could afford to take the worst of it on the occasions when someone did call. I would think that you have a lot less folding equity in a small stakes game (especially since these games have more calling stations and short-stacks...)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes the hands I posted were ones that I had trouble with not necessarily showing off Brunson's style.

There were lots of hands where I had suited connectors, flopped nothing , bet with nothing, got called , got nothing on the turn, bet with nothing and had the opponennt fold..

Postflop Agression Factor in Brunson mode is about 7!!!!
VP$IP is about 25%
PFR is about 9%

It's really really scarry for me to bet when I have nothing, get called or raised and then push all in with nothing but a flush draw or straight draw or perhaps 2nd pair....

Sometimes it works...
Sometimes it fails...

But it's a heck of a lot more fun and scarry than playing Wait_for_the_stupid_people_to_drop_off_their_cash_ at_your_bet_the_nuts

pokernicus · #29 07-07-2005, 08:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]

It's really really scarry for me to bet when I have nothing, get called or raised and then push all in with nothing but a flush draw or straight draw or perhaps 2nd pair....

Sometimes it works...
Sometimes it fails...

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like you've had moments of fun (and, of course, terror) playing this style. Thanks for updating us on it.

Did you get called frequently when you went all-in? And if so, what kinds of hands called you (i.e., best to worst)?

Also, did you find that by playing this style you
1) got more action from real hands?
2) made people more afraid to tangle with you? (i.e., they were more passive, checking, etc.?)

derick · #30 07-08-2005, 01:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It's really really scarry for me to bet when I have nothing, get called or raised and then push all in with nothing but a flush draw or straight draw or perhaps 2nd pair....

Sometimes it works...
Sometimes it fails...

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like you've had moments of fun (and, of course, terror) playing this style. Thanks for updating us on it.

Did you get called frequently when you went all-in? And if so, what kinds of hands called you (i.e., best to worst)?

Also, did you find that by playing this style you
1) got more action from real hands?
2) made people more afraid to tangle with you? (i.e., they were more passive, checking, etc.?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes of course I get called, and I have the worst of it, but like Doyle says, "I've got a freeroll from all the small pots I've picked up"

I honestly didn't think it would work.. it sounds way way too aggressive. Imagine a postflop aggression factor of 7!!!

I think *I* need to call more and bet less...

I think my sample size is way too small and the varriance too high so I guess I'd need ..... 30,000 hands to be able to say if it works.

I get a ton more action from my good hands!

To make this system work you need to identify if the opponent can lay down a hand ...

If the opponent has no brain that you can detect, Don't dare bluff him ....

For the record I put $100 into a party skin and it went up to $140, down to $12, and back up to $167.

I played about 2000 raked hands all on the $25NL.

Now I need to learn how to be less aggressive and get my post flop aggression down from 7. I fall into every trap and slow play in the book. How can I fix this?