$60-$120 Hand

Jim,

The pre-flop call is a disaster. I am not sure how else to say it. Your hand is awful in relation to both of the hands that have positon on you (theoretically speaking, given the range of hands players limp with UTG and raise in MP), and it is expensive to play (you are not sneaking in for a half bet).

On the flop, you played it well, a bet out is good because you want to eliminate a gutshot, and a raise is likely, letting you 3 bet. Bravo.

On the turn, I would have read UTG for a likely, but not definite, flush draw. The pre-flop raiser is not bluffing with his raise, but he has postion on you.

This means there's no reason for the pre-flop raiser to 3 bet with AA or AK on the flop, since you are likely betting a flush draw or a big hand when you bet out the flop, or a hand that he dominates. He wants to see what the turn brings, and to have you keep betting a weaker hand.

Add to this the low probability of a set, and a turn 3 bet is almost mandatory - the pot is pretty large, and you want anyone with AA or AK or Kx to fold, since 3 outs are close to getting their price - these hands might not fold, and tat's ok, too. Also, if UTG is indeed on a flush draw, you need to get his $ now since he won't be bluffing on the end.

It's just too easy for the pf raiser to have a big K or AA, and this, combined with the long odds against KK or 99, and weirdness of 66, means you should 3 bet the turn, and bet the river if a blank falls. A blank is any card T or lower that is not a diamond and does not pair the board.

[andyfox]

I found a K-9s example in Fighting Fuzzy Thinking , but the "tough player" was not, by my reading, necessarily UTG. David says "A tough player raises, everyone else folds, and you who are the big blind calls with Ks-9s." Suited or not, I'd rather have the K-9 head-up than out of position against two players, especially a tough one who comes in UTG. I would have folded pre-flop too.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Jim,

[I had the post below 70% written, but then a friend came over to watch “The Sopranos.” Now I’ve seen Andy Fox’s post above, but decided to finish it and post it anyway.]

Was "you" in your post above the generic "you" or was "you" in the post above in reference to "me" a.k.a., Rick Nebiolo, who wrote a bunch of questions a long time ago that ended up circuitously in “Fighting Fuzzy Thinking in Poker, Gaming, & Life”.

Anyway, in FFTIPG&L, page 145, David Sklansky told “me” that K9 (actually it was offsuit) should call. However, in the book example I was going all in for half a bet in a tournament I played in about 13 years ago. He agreed I had an easy tournament call but in a ring game he advised folding the hand head up.

Suited or not, with K-9 I agree with Andy Fox that it is better to be head up as opposed to out of position against two opponents. INO, being suited with two opponents is overrated. Flushes don’t add much three way since you don’t have an overlay on your draw. In addition, taking one off with a three flush (let’s say you bet a pair on the flop and were raised) usually costs you since picking up the draw on the turn usually means you will be facing a big bet with a pot size of about six big bets. This is a small overlay at best. Note that most of the time you won’t even pick up a draw (and would have folded on the flop if your were offsuit).

Regards,

Rick

[Mason Malmuth]

First you should fold befold the flop but it might be close depending on the players.

On the turn you should not make it three bets. That's because you might be beat and there is a good chance you will get overcalled by someone who is drawing very thin.

MM

[Mason Malmuth]

I would fold BTF if both opponents were solid.

That's the way I see it. If one of these players played poorly I might call, or if a third person was in I would probably call. But against two solid players it should be folded in my opinion.

MM [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[SittingBull]

was that it was concealed.
Since the effective pot odds was going to be large,it was worth going all the way with KJ.
Jim and the other player could have both been on draws.
Even though Jim had top two pairs,KJ could have very well nabbed another "J" overriding Jim's "top" two pairs.
He also had another slim shot with the case "K".
Jim could also have been playing a weaker kicker than a "J".
Laying down KJ on the flop would have been a very tough fold --even for a solid player(UNlESS U have knowledge of your opponent)
But even if one played with Jim for a period of time,Jim would not be a winning player at these limits if he had a consistent "readable" pattern.
Hence,the more reason the KJ would have to call.

Happy pokering
Sitting Bull

[SittingBull]

that your opponents UNDERESTIMATE your hand when there are semi-bluff possibilities on the flop??
If U had the nut flush draw on the flop,wouldn't U cap the 3-way action ??
Just wondering,
Sitting Bull

[SittingBull]

raise on the flop,do U really BELIEVE anyone is going to drop out on the turn if Jim RE- RAISES?? It seems to me the pot is already made. If someone has a draw or a decent hand or a better hand than Jim has,he isn't going anywhere for another turn raise.
So Jim MIGHT be re-raised by a stronger hand!
That's life(C'est la vie)!
But I think the "MIGHT" is more NOT probable than probable.
Don't U think that Jim is more than a 50% favorite on the turn??
If one can't play aggressively with a strong concealed hand like Jim's,then he should retire!
Hmmm
Happy pokering,
Sitting Bull

[mikelow]

Most (nearly all) of my recent winnings has come from sports.
I still play some, but I'm trying out pot limit.

[andyfox]

Turns out Jim was against K-J and A-A. I know it's being results-oriented, but in a 60-120 game, against an UTG limper and a player who raises him, I would think your chances of being in such an unenviable position are pretty high.