23s,BB, 15/30

[Peter_rus]

It's simple filter in PT. Big blind, put money in, no raise, between 3 and 3 people see flop and pick hands from "specific hands window".

[ QUOTE ]
The volumes of hands is not overwhelming.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it was around -0.46-0.48 results i would have worried about sample size. Till my results are pretty far from -0.5 i think my sample is sufficient.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play exactly the same way out of the BB for 1 bet

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually i don't like play out of BB this way. Even if getting the same preflop odds and position.

According my investigations it's clear that weak *flush* implyed odds don't grow and become even lesser when more people in the pot as probability to loose to higher flush or full is more. Also your flopped trash pairs aren't usually cost a coin when it's 6-7-way and not 3-4 way flop.

The same thing concerned with sets. After 4 people in and you have a low set you win nearly the same amount of money as when you have a low set and 6 or 8 people see flop due to straights, flushes and higher sets increased probability.

Though maybe i miss something and position weigh more than i suppose and with good postflop play you can turn trashy suited hands to winners at 15/30 after 3+ limpers. And as i don't limp with trash suited hands regardless on number of limpers i can't say if it's profitable or no. I counted only my blinds implyed odds, not when im in position.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an incredible set of posts. You should really write all your ideas down in an organized format, and probably get an editor whose first language is English. But in spite of your language barrier, you've put some awesome ideas together recently.
-James

[Monkeyslacks]

[ QUOTE ]
This is an incredible set of posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to agree here. All this has caused me to take a hard look at my blind defense.

Thanks Peter.

[J_V]

When you say 3-way, are you including yourself? Just to make sure we are understanding each other fine.

[Peter_rus]

Yes, including myself. And one more thing. If you don't mind to play your trashy flopped pairs never - this play start to be -EV as only flushes and 2pairs trips can't make this play +EV. So if you feel uncomfortable and don't know what to do with your 37s when flop is 36Qr you better just muck it preflop.

[PassiveCaller]

What led to you deciding to bet the river instead of check raising it? I think with an overaggressive button I probably would have gone for it.

I'm not sure on the river but otherwise I like this hand.

[Turning Stone Pro]

This is especially important in short-handed play. To be able to tell from someone's betting patterns and prior behaivors if they have big overcards or not, when you flop third pair and the board is J-8-4.

Peter is exactly right, if you cannot competently play third pair out of position on the flop with two opponents, then playing two suited trash cards from the BB doesnt have near the +ev you need.

IMO, the easiest people to beat shorthanded are those that play big suited cards like they are playing a full or close to full field. In other words, they play like they would expect a fellow with third pair to muck in the face of heat.

This, IMO, is why short-handed 15-30 PP is so much more profitable, with less fluctuation, then multi-table play.



TSP

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
According my investigations it's clear that weak *flush* implyed odds don't grow and become even lesser when more people in the pot as probability to loose to higher flush or full is more.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you clarify what you mean by your "investigations"? Do you just mean that your bb/100 results are worse with these hands with more people in? Or that you've done actual simulations or something to test how your flush potential specifically is affected? Because if it's the former, that doesn't really prove the statment about specifically flush potential, since you could (and probably are) be getting hurt in multiway pots more by the fact that you can't win as easily by making one or two pair.

[Peter_rus]

I know probability of flush,trips, 2 pairs on flop. I know how much give me trashy pairs 3-way (its +ev number). I know probability of 4-flush and OESD with one pocket card on flop. I saw my stats from 15/30 with all these *flop* holdings and find out how much they give to me with certain number of players in a pot per/hand from BB with my current postflop skill to correct my defence preflop. This means that hands i muck PF - im not able to make profit, but anyone who's better postflop then me very probably can and must even more expand his preflop looseness.

There is a question about decent size of sample. But decent size postflop is way lesser than you need preflop, especially when you consider such big group like "any trashy *4flush*" out of position. If you have 50-60 hands like these on flop you can really figure where you're with your 4flushes 3way out of position, while preflop even for a group of starters variance is way higher.

[Ulysses]

As usual, great use of PT analysis to know what to play and when, Peter.

Only issue with this hand is I am pretty sure river CR on deuce is going to be more profitable for you than betting out.