Q-Js or 8-8

[AceHigh]

I like 88 or any pocket pair over QJs. It seems unlikely that the flop play will be passive if the players are so aggressive preflop.

[Michael Davis]

I just downloaded PokerStove and it rules.

Anyways, I ran the following simulation, which I think will shed some light on the issue at hand. I gave all players the hand ranges of raising hands that I generally assume to be the case when I am at the table:

Player 1: AKs, AKo
Player 2: AKs, AKo
Player 3: AKs, AKo
Player 4: AKs, AKo

In this scenario, 88 had 83% equity and QJs had 51.8. But the equity of QJs is especially higher because you may be able to occasionally steal when the flop comes T97 or something by just pounding. Not enough to make up 30%, though.

Clearly, both of these hands are excellent holdings in this situation.

-Michael

[droidboy]

[ QUOTE ]
These may be reasons why QJs is better than 88. Specifically, 88 may just have one chance - on the flop - to drag a big pot while QJ might get 3 profitable chances.


[/ QUOTE ]

We are talking about a pot with 20+ small bets in it. Depending on how the action goes, 88 will often take one of on the flop. You also seem to forget that there are plenty of straight draws for 88 to flop as well as the 2 outs for the set. It won't be uncommon for 88 to have a six out draw to go to the river with.

The biggest problem for QJs is that when it hits two pair, it will be very vulnerable to straght redraws.

- Andrew

[skp]

Agreed on the 88 discussion. But I was aware of 88 possibly sticking around beyond the flop (see the use of the word "may" in my post that you responded to) and also aware that it too might flop a draw (see my intial post in response to Andy's lead post).

On the QJs, perhaps it's semantics but I would not characterize hitting two pairs and being vulnerable to straight REDRAWS as being the biggest problem. Hitting two pairs on say the turn or river and having that card making someone else a straight at the same time is perhaps what you meant and that is of course a concern.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
if you are calling cold they are both bad hands. but if in, the 88 has to make up alot after the flop in bets so it must be with players that are going to push hard after the flop. the queen jack is so much prettier so i will go with that one.

[/ QUOTE ]

what do you mean prettier? please explain what makes it better...is it because of the drawing opportunities that present themselves that almost guarantee others have cards that match those that include your draws? etc..

-Barron

[JihadOnTheRiver]

I agree with Fianchetto. The strongest argument in this discussion, for my money at least, is the ability to get away from 88 if it doesn't hit. QJs is going to get you into a lot of situations where you talk yourself into believing you're making an odds-based call or bet, when you may be drawing dead or very very slim.

-Durka Durka

[JihadOnTheRiver]

ATs not with somebody else's money

-Durka Durka

[Dave Mac]

he means nicer to look at not better.

[Dave Mac]

I think ATs is ok here but def not better than QJs, you flop 3 Qs or 3 Js or one or either it is much more liekyl to be good than an A. Plus it makes more str8s.
Dave

[skp]

As Andrew Prock points out, it may not be easy (or even correct) to get away from 88 if you don't catch a set on the flop given that there are 20 small bets in there preflop.

But let's asume that we go in with a hit or get out philosophy. This ability to "get away" should not be seen as a big advantage. The fact is that the inability to stick around and improve on the turn and river is a disadvantage. That is to say, QJs offers you more of an opportunity to win a big pot than 88. QJs will no doubt cost you more but you will win the pot more often with it.
This is a big pot that is bound to get bigger. The chance to win a big pot should trump the ability to save bets postflop.

HFPAP advises that:

In big pots, do what you can to win it. Saving bets should be a secondary consideration (or something to that effect as I am paraphrasing).

If "do what you can" includes picking a hand, one might pick QJs for the reasons you give for wanting to pick 88.