First Foray Into Full Ring Games

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
Before I storm off in a huff to drag up links where this way ahead/way behind passive approach is discussed... am I missing something?

You're either aware of the check/call line in that circumstance and I'm missing something about this hand that makes it inherently different... or you disagree with that line.

But it's not complete rubbish... I may be misapplying a concept here, but it's been well argued in the past, and this seems like a relatively textbook example.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flop and turn are fine. On the river, if you check, you let him value bet when he wants and take a free showdown if he wants when you check but if you bet, you make him call with his worse hands. Did you read my very long post in this thread?

[MasterShakes]

I take back most of my analysis after reading the other posts. This is a situation that I have never analyzed before. Do note that he can't be the one capping if he's betting out.

Also, with no reads on the table, I can't be as certain as everybody else here seems to be that he's either way ahead or way behind. I know that 5/10 tends to play tighter than the 2/4 I usually play, so if you just consider the level and the site, this is the most likely situation.

[ErrantNight]

if the only circumstances you're happy with on check/call check/call bet is when bet is met by call when you're ahead...

how is that better than check/call check/call check/call?

you give a worse hand the opportunity to fold, you don't increase the number of bets you won (except under the least likely scenario of all: getting raised on the river by a worse hand which you call).

this has been discussed numerous times by better poker minds than i, and the consensus has always been check/call to the river is the better line, unless there's something unusual about this hand i'm missing... i gotta disagree.

[ErrantNight]

Yes... have you read the two equally lengthy discussions posted in the past few months discussing this same scenario that came to the conclusion that the check/call line all the way down was the proper play?

Isn't he value-betting JJ-TT here? or AQ even? pretty much anything he'd have bet the first two streets with and raised PF with?

You say no... I disagree.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes... have you read the two equally lengthy discussions posted in the past few months discussing this same scenario that came to the conclusion that the check/call line all the way down was the proper play?

Isn't he value-betting JJ-TT here? or AQ even? pretty much anything he'd have bet the first two streets with and raised PF with?

You say no... I disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]
I haven't read any threads that agree that in a way ahead, way behind situation, check/call, check/call, check/call is the best line, unless the opponent is overly aggressive. Do you have links to these threads?

Rob

[colgin]

Entity, Spamuell and The Dude already summed up my thinking pretty well so I don't want to repeat what they already said. Just one further point.

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't he value-betting JJ-TT here? or AQ even? pretty much anything he'd have bet the first two streets with and raised PF with?


[/ QUOTE ]

If he is a 2+2er he likely is. But many of our opponents are all too happy to take a free showdown with anything less than monster hands. Part of what makes them weak opponents in the first place is that they fail to value bet enough on the river. However, these very same opponents will almost always call with anything (often as little as Ace high) as they hate more than anything in the world to be bluffed.

Now, I don't hate the call-down line and, as others have suggested, it is opponent dependent. However, here I lean towards betting the river.

[ErrantNight]

working on it...

[ErrantNight]

Well, Spamuell... I was wrong... not only was your argument here convincing enough to have paid more attention to it... but I finally found the two other sets of posts I was looking for, only to find that I had remembered these lines completely wrong...

basically after much argument and discussion they extoll:
check/call check/call bet

precisely what was decided here and argued by you...

definitely something i've done incorrectly (but gotten away with) in my game... and particularly bad that i was involved in one of the two discussion (although initially arguing different points...)

anyway, here's a link to the argument that convinced me the first time around (this thread was a link from the thread i was arguing in...)

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...mp;o=&vc=1

i think i ended up making the same argument then as now... and for whatever reason my thinking (as, probably exemplified here) keeps creeping back in to check/call the river... which it looks like i shouldn't.

cheers.

[BaronVonCP]

I'm glad i read before I posted.

you'll get called enough by AK, and smaller pocket pairs enough to make this profitiable.

Even AA, KK will not raise you too often in this spot.

[ErrantNight]

AK has you beat, and i'm sure KK is raising it's flopped set.

but otherwise... i've come around to agree with you