No free cards!

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
The bring-in and ante are not low. Actually this game is structured almost exactly like $15-$30 with a $5 bring-in and a $2 ante. So as for your question about limping with marginal hands the answer is no in most cases. Realize that even though it only costs a buck to limp that buck is still 1/3 of a bet. A game with a 10% ante is in most cases considered average, notice here that even though its only 50 cents thats 16%.

Mike Emery

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I can't think of a stud game with a proportionally larger bring in, and the fact that the ante is medium-large, would make one want to play a little looser, right?

So, 5/10 with $.5 ante and $2 bring in would be a good place to play tight, right?

[AdamK]

I used to play in a 3/6 game with a $.25 ante and $1.50 bring in.
I played tight as a drum. It was like losing the will to live, slowly.
This game seems to have died out - wonder why.

[Andy B]

Sure, play looser in the $3/6 game, but don't get carried away with it.

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I can't think of a stud game with a proportionally larger bring in....

[/ QUOTE ]

and then you cite $5/10, which has a proportionally higher bring-in. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] A lot of on-line games have half-bet bring-ins, and so do the $4/8 games at Canterbury Park. I think a $1 bring-in would make for a better game, but I don't get a vote.

This $3/6 game is structured exactly like $30/60, which is actually considered a fairly high ante game. 7CS4AP is written for games structured like this, and I find it highly applicable, especially the section on loose games. I think you can play fairly loose for the initial dollar, but if it's an aggressive game, you have to play reasonably tight.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
This $3/6 game is structured exactly like $30/60, which is actually considered a fairly high ante game.

[/ QUOTE ]

It should be obvious that the 3-6 is a FAIRLY high ante game because the ante is the same as 5-10 but the stakes are smaller. Still, you must look at the steal odds to see it...

5-10 full game $4 in antes $2 bring-in makes for $6 in the pot, raised to $5 the defender gets 11:3 (not quite 4:1) pot odds to call.

3-6 full game $4 in antes $1 bring-in makes for $5 in the pot, raised to $3 the defender gets 8:2, or 4:1 pot odds to call (slightly more than the 5-10).

Contrast to 10-20:

10-20 full game $8 in antes $3 bring-in makes for $11 in the pot, raised to $10 the defender gets 21:7 (3:1) pot odds to call (much less than 3-6 or 5-10).

Now compare to 40-80 with a $10 ante...

40-80 full game $80 in antes $10 bring-in makes for $90 in the pot, raised to $40 the defender gets 130:40 pot odds to call (more than 4:1).

Just a curiosity. Game structures fascinate me, especially stud games.

al

[nef]

have you read Grant Strauss's cardplayer articles on stud structure? They are pretty interesting.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...es/?a_id=12492

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...es/?a_id=12732

[timmer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
8's even if the best hand is such a big dog against this crowd your bet has absolutly no + ev. a free card has infinity more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me guess. You simply made that up and have nothing to back it up.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=436983
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s 8d 5c 8h 3h - 3s 4s qs 7c - kh 6c 6d 2d - ad 6h 9d 5d - ah jd ks 2c - 6s td 7h 5s
7-card Stud Hi: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
5c 8d 8h 3h 113621 22.72 386373 77.27 6 0.00 0.227
Qs 4s 3s 7c 107974 21.59 392023 78.40 3 0.00 0.216
6c 6d 2d Kh 57151 11.43 442849 88.57 0 0.00 0.114
Ad 9d 5d 6h 73933 14.79 426023 85.20 44 0.01 0.148
Ks 2c Jd Ah 83453 16.69 416541 83.31 6 0.00 0.167
6s 5s Td 7h 63818 12.76 436141 87.23 41 0.01 0.128

Given that everybody checked, I think I'm being rather generous with the hands I've given these guys. There's another pair with an overcard King, two three-flushes with at least one overcard to 8's, and a couple of three-straights.


[/ QUOTE ]`

Let me guess... your willing to take bare 8's into a crowd
. even in your fantasy sim you are like what a 4:1 dog? vs the crowd ?

Even if you have the best hand now unless you catch a perfect card you are toast.

Let me guess you play Hold em .... Right ?

just my few cents

[Andy B]

Grant Strauss may be the most cumbersome writer I have ever read.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Let me guess... your willing to take bare 8's into a crowd. even in your fantasy sim you are like what a 4:1 dog? vs the crowd ?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I've got 22.7% pot equity, I've no problem being a 4:1 dog against the field. I'm making money with every bet put into the pot. This is something a lot of players don't grasp very well. More importantly, some players are going to fold to your bet and your pot equity is going to go up.

[ QUOTE ]
Even if you have the best hand now unless you catch a perfect card you are toast.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nonsense. When everybody checks to you, it's likely you are winning. So, you don't need to catch a perfect card. You don't need to catch anything at all. Your opponents need to catch.

[ QUOTE ]
Let me guess you play Hold em .... Right ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. But, I used to make a living playing mid-limit stud. I put up quite a few stud posts back in 2002.

[bbooze]

I love that this fairly disintesting hand has gotten so much action as far as responses, it goes to show that these "it happens 2-3 times an hour" hands are where allot of us are confused, and worried that we're not playing correctly.

I for one play in propotionately low ante games (%5 of BigBet) so I wouldn't be as willing to play that hand (save for table image value).
But I do take a stab at a pot with a hand like that about once an hour (on 4th that is), and while I don't really have any data to back me up, it seems like I lose way more than I gain. Too often (I'm only speaking personally) I find that when I take the lead in a pot like this I get myself overcommited on 5th and Sixth thinking that my opponents are ripe to fold, and that just one more bet is sure to convince them.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if my numbers were to improve allot if I nixed this type of move from my stud diet all together.