Flop decision with KQ UTG when an A flops

[btspider]

I still dunno. When I've raised preflop and an Ace comes on the flop, people tend to get out of my way. Maybe its a table image thing, but I've found recent success by putting that extra flop bet in. I'll need more hands to decide I guess, since my sample size is tiny for this situation [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

If you have only 2 opponents, I think you have to bet. The 3 opponents and lack of a rainbow flop may make it not worth it, since its more difficult to know where you are when called.

Drop my check-raise comments, I think I really just didn't like the initial check and wasn't prepared to fold without any fight [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Your best options are definitely bet or check-fold.

[RED_RAIN]

Okay I just read the thread and all replies. Very VERY disappoining people. 90% horrible advice.

flair1239, really is the only one that seems to get "close" and anyone else who agrees with folding on this flop.

The preflop raise is good.

Now let's look at the situation. We have 4 people to the flop, with a possible flush draw, and our enemy card of the ace. You are UTG and PFR, now a good player would recognize that this is usually a stronger hand than a late position raise, but this is nanolimit and people are idiots. We have 4 cold callers, nearly no hand is worth cold calling versus 3 betting, so we have 4 idiots (there can be arguments made for the last 2 cold callers on what hands are better to cold call versus 3-bet, but for now, 4 idiots). What do idiots usually cold call with? They do this with suited and Ax.

So now our flop comes A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] with 4 players to the flop.

Betting into 4 people is often a risky play. If there were just 3 to the flop, I would bet the flop and if called by just one, bet the turn, if called by 2, you would want to re-evaluate what the card is and if you feel a bet would take down the pot there. Don't think about firing three bullets into 2 callers on the flop, turn, and river and expect it to be folded to you on the river. This is a suck out play. As the only people we will get are people on draws or maybe just maybe someone calling with a pair and then believes us on the river that we have TP (don't think this happens much).

But, we have 4 people to the flop, now looking at our options of betting or checking we should think of this. If we bet, do we think we can get this heads up on the turn? Unlikely. That's why I think with KQo, with no aparent draws, no gutshot (I'd be more likely to bet with a gutshot, even though your odds aren't improving much), I think it's better to check/fold here.

If we hit a King or Queen on the turn or river, we really should not bet for value if we did go the route of betting the flop and turn as usually they are just calling with their weak ace. Some may argue bet for value, but over experience, you will get sucked out. I'd rather bet for value against a flush card coming on the river than second pair on the river.

Like flair1239 said, even if we do check/raise, get it heads up on the turn, then bet, do we expect a nanolimit player to really fold his Ace, any pair, or flush draw on the turn? The chances are unlikely for him to fold any of the above. So he calls on the turn. If we sit with nothing but King-Queen high, or even if we get lucky and sit with a pair, we still have really no idea of where we are at on the river regardless if no flush card comes. We are putting in an aggressive play were we could be drawing very thing (runner runner, of trying to catch a bluff into 3 other people including a PFRer). That's why I also dislike this idea.

EDITED: Just because you PFR, DOES NOT mean you have to bet the flop. This is a misconception by many new players just as much the idea when people feel you must raise a bet to you for a free card, you don't always want to raise for a free card with a draw, because you want to maximize potential profits.

[Danenania]

I just read Ed's book and I think check/folding this is right in line with his advice. See the section on counting outs.

[cartoonsoldier]

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Okay I just read the thread and all replies. Very VERY disappoining people. 90% horrible advice.

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I think many agreed that folding the flop is the right play.

Apart from that, good analysis of that hand.