20/40 - Huge laydown with a flopped flush. Foolish?

[lil feller]

This situation, like so many others, boils down to two things.

1. How sure are you that your opponent has a hand that beats you (and if you're beat, obviously you have no draw)

2. How big is the pot?

It is extremely difficult to quantify #1, especially in front of a computer, and nobody on this forum that wasn't in your game can possibily understand how you arrived at your value for #1. I've made folds like this before, but I have been 100% sure that the villian had Axs or the straight flush (67 if IIRC). I've folded KK pre-flop in no limit also, but was 100% sure the other guy had AA. In my usual B&M game there are maybe 2 or 3 people I fold this hand to, maybe this is guy is one such guy for you. The point here is that we can't possibily assess this kind of sitaution for you, all you can do is evaulate odds you have the best hand to odds you're getting from the pot, and make a decision.

My gut tells me it was the right play, no player like you described 4 bets with a set here, he might have a smaller flush, but putting him on anything less than a flopped flush after the 4 bet is just wishful thinking, the only question that remains is how big...

lf

[SinCityGuy]

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i also think the preflop raise is incorrect. you make a flush by the river less then 6% of the time, that many people IF you flop top pair there are hands that beat you. KTs is playable in that position, but not a premium hand.

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I've had some disagreements on AKo and AQo, but big suited aces and kings are excellent value raises in the blinds against limpers. Even a weak Vegas player like me would raise here.

[pokerOpus]

folding this is insane.

[afish]

I would have bet the flop and tried to get more action.

On the turn, your fold is insane. It is unlikely to get reraised behind you. You are getting 7:1 on your money if you call the turn and the river. Your hand will be good more than one out of eight times. Even if you lose 80% of the time, calling this hand down is correct.

[Clarkmeister]

And one day grasshopper, you will reach true enlightenment when you realize that even in a family pot, AKo is superior to KTs. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[SoBeDude]

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i think thats absolutely absurd to fold, at least check and call it down, good god man, WUT DO U THINK He flopped the nut flush and u flopped the secondary nut, at most he hit a set...

jeez blgdvDvxcvxcvh how could u FOLD!!

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umm...is reading too many tommy angelo posts a viable excuse? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Tommy would have check-folded the flop.

[SoBeDude]

After your "speech" about Aces not holding up in these pots, your opponent can put you on a lot of hands that are NOT a flush, so he'll think raising you is correct with many non-flush or smaller flush hands.

We've all seen people 3bet with Aces when its obvious to everyone else at the table that the overpair is no good. Also you bet out on the turn, and the turn card makes a straight possible.
Wouldn't someone with QT holding the Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] maybe 3bet the turn? And if someone has a smaller made flush, they should punish anyone holding a lone big club.

I think there are enough possibilities here that you need to call down.

-Scott

[Avatar]

[ QUOTE ]
After your "speech" about Aces not holding up in these pots, your opponent can put you on a lot of hands that are NOT a flush, so he'll think raising you is correct with many non-flush or smaller flush hands.

We've all seen people 3bet with Aces when its obvious to everyone else at the table that the overpair is no good. Also you bet out on the turn, and the turn card makes a straight possible.
Wouldn't someone with QT holding the Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] maybe 3bet the turn? And if someone has a smaller made flush, they should punish anyone holding a lone big club.

I think there are enough possibilities here that you need to call down.

-Scott

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I was waiting for someone to mention that. Due to that remark I made I did decide to call the 4-bet. And check/call the river.

I tapped the table and said you win and he flips over A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. If the pot wasn't quite as big I think I could safely fold to the turn 4-bet based on my read on this player.

I changed the original post a bit to make it more debatable.

[bobbyi]

I'm suprised more people haven't questioned the flop play. Bet this! With this many people in and this much money in the pot, you'll get action. Your bet looks like a follow-through on your preflop raise, so you aren't giving away the strength of your hand. Your hand is strong enough to slowplay, but that doesn't mean that you'll make the most money that way. In the games I play, I often get plenty of action from the bare A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] here. He may cap it with me, trapping lots of people in between who are drawing dead. Or someone puts me on the bare A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (probably on AKo) and decides his hand is good. Or no one has much, but people will call for one bet because of the pot size and otherwise it would have checked around (as it almost did here). There are lots of possibilities here, but in general I think you're leaving money on the table by checking.

[ggbman]

I really think you have to call this down. You don't think there's any chance he flopped a smaller flush or a set and thought he was slowplaying? I think with the money in there already, you have to grit you teeth and call it down, there's only one thing that beats you.