What did I do wrong here or was I doomed - Page 3

rybones · #21 09-20-2004, 03:06 PM

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You should know enough about your opponent by now to put him on a range of hands that he would raise 3xBB preflop with. I guarantee you its a lot more than AA, KK, AK. And then once you've thought about what hands he could be raising with preflop, you would immediately come to the correct decision to raise him all-in preflop.

The hand was played terribly.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, I respectfully disagree with a lot here.

1. this is a sng and while I often know the range of hands my opponents will raise with when it gets to this point, I do not always know and I think anyone who says they do is fooling themselves.

2. I do agree that the range of hands is greater that A,A K,K or A,K. all the more reason to try to play this hand for it's fullest value by not raising. and all the more reason to bet to see where you are at in the hand.

3. I can still play and make the money with only 40% of this stack. can't you?

4. hands are not played terribly or amazingly, they are either played with or without thought.

It strikes me that this and many of the other posts in this thread go against what I thought was the spirit of this forum which was to investigate different lines of play. I have no problem with the pre-flop push and agree that it is usually a positive ev move. However, to argue (as I think many here have) that that is the only right move is absurd to me.

I have now responded in this thread four or five times. I guess I am stuck to this thread as it really makes me wonder why people would want to come here for advice?

while I am fairly new to 2+2 and try to always present a personia of somone who is investigating I wish to take a stand here. I think that posts where someone's play is merely vilified are extremely unhelpful. This is perhaps even more true for the ones posting their black and white advice. I wonder if you are just fortifying your own resolve to play situations the same every time they arise. For my money, you are limiting your own poker education when you post in black and white. For those who still think I am wrong on how to play this hand, really read my first responce carefully. I think you will find that I presented the idea that he may have been on to something but that if he was going to try it there were two other ways to go about it. Is that so bad?

as always, just my opinion

ryan

rybones · #22 09-20-2004, 03:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As for this specific problem, I think the problem with just calling, and then betting a small amount, is that too many players will consider themselves pot-committed, or smell weakness on you, and push on you, whether or not they hit their overcard. This puts you in a terrible spot, and you'll be outplayed no matter what from what I can see. You're out of position, and don't have stack intimidation on your side. If you're going to go ahead and push/call on the flop no matter what comes, why not push preflop and push out the overcards to begin with? The fear is that he's got AA or KK? So what? You're still all-in no matter what, when the flop comes rag-rag-rag. And if you're just going to fold when an overcard comes, you're simply paying too much to see the flop to just fold. Too many players will view themselves as pot-committed or will simply sense your weakness, and they will push you off your hand with stuff like 88-JJ, or unpaired high cards that didn't hit, or good drawing hands.

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Now This is a good post. I quite agree with the analyisi and like the way it is presented. I still feel there is some value in learing to play post flop, but you make a good point about the other person now being pot committed.

ryan

wjmooner · #23 09-20-2004, 03:19 PM

The problem with this hand, as others have pointed out, is that you can't trap people with QQ. I can even see a smooth call with AA or even KK followed by a push on any flop, but with the blinds this big you should be more than happy with just taking down the blinds with QQ. And if he call and he has AA or KK then oh well. If he has AK you race and you are ahead. If he has anything else you are in great shape.

Out of position with very shallow money with QQ when an Ace or a King hits and you figure he raises with an Ace or a King? Not so much fun.

WJMooner

DCIAce · #24 09-20-2004, 04:02 PM

Push preflop. It isn't close. QQ isn't a good trapping hand, and you're well ahead of the average hand that'll call you.
If he folds, you're up to 2365, an increase of more than 1/3rd of your stack without having to showdown a winner, which is a fine result.
If he calls, you probably win about 2/3rds of the time, against a normal range of calling hands, which, again, is a fine result.

There are a few problems with just calling. You let K-rag and A-rag see free flops against you. Also, you're out of position for the whole hand.. If you're the Button, I think calling, while still not close to the best play, becomes more viable.

Given that you saw a flop..

Flop check is fine.
I probably bet 300 or so on the turn, outside of a miracle queen, the king was probably the best card for your hand.
River, well, obviously you're going to lose a bunch when the Queen comes off. I think betting out small after it went check/check twice is probably better.. you may get a call from Ace high, or a small/mid PP that wouldn't have bet.

Anyways, all the trouble could be avoided if you just push preflop.

EnderW27 · #25 09-20-2004, 04:13 PM

Let me present another reason you'd want to push all-in pf.

Imagine he has 8-8.

You call and flop comes down K-J-3 or A-T-5 or A-J-2 You check, he bets all in. Heck, let's say he only bets half his stack here.

Now what? You calling? You raising him all in?
Or are you going to fold the best hand because you wanted to smoothcall and see what the flop brings.

gyndok · #26 09-20-2004, 04:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Let me present another reason you'd want to push all-in pf.

Imagine he has 8-8.

You call and flop comes down K-J-3 or A-T-5 or A-J-2 You check, he bets all in. Heck, let's say he only bets half his stack here.

Now what? You calling? You raising him all in?
Or are you going to fold the best hand because you wanted to smoothcall and see what the flop brings.

[/ QUOTE ]

point well taken... I considered this...
Overcard comes 1/3 of the time and I will have to fold..

gyndok · #27 09-20-2004, 06:50 PM

So I decided to try another S&G and here is what came up

I love QQ.. Got all my chips in as 70:30 favorite

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (6 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

GYNDOK (t1740)
Button (t1360)
SB (t3330)
BB (t2080)
UTG (t4180)
MP (t810)

Preflop: GYNDOK is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, MP raises to t80, GYNDOK raises to t300, Button folds, SB raises to t740, BB folds, MP folds, GYNDOK raises to t1740, SB calls t1000.

Flop: (t3580) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

Turn: (t3580) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: (t3580) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t3580

Results in white below: 
SB has Ac Qs (one pair, aces).
GYNDOK has Qh Qc (one pair, queens).
Outcome: SB wins t3580.

tallstack · #28 09-20-2004, 07:02 PM

Well, I am sure that you will get some responses on why this situation is very different than your original post, but I doubt that was the reason for this post. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

You tried it both ways and came up with nothing. Sometimes it goes like that. At least you have the satisfaction here that you got all the money in with by far the best of it.

gyndok · #29 09-20-2004, 07:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I am sure that you will get some responses on why this situation is very different than your original post, but I doubt that was the reason for this post. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

You tried it both ways and came up with nothing. Sometimes it goes like that. At least you have the satisfaction here that you got all the money in with by far the best of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

let me head that one off at the pass..

I KNOW this is a VERY different situation..

J5983 · #30 09-20-2004, 07:21 PM

If you had some sort of read that the SB was a joker, then this is fine. However, there's a big difference between the two hands here:

A. You have a huge stack (relative to the blinds).
B. You have position.

Here it's perfectly okay to see a flop. If he has AA/KK, well, you would lose anyway. If not, then you can see if he would bet any random overcard as a bluff before you act.