Flop - Page 3

callmedonnie · #21 08-15-2005, 01:36 PM

I think a call is best. You have enough outs if this guy is holding 98 or 87 suited. I don't want to fold for a bet in a pot this small and I don't think raising is a good option here.

callmedonnie · #22 08-15-2005, 01:39 PM

How do you feel about being three bet? because if the thinking player has top pair, pp, or that 76, unless your raise pushes people out his equity would justify that. especially if he puts on a couple of overcards.

callmedonnie · #23 08-15-2005, 01:49 PM

Agreed. With two players behind him I'd say he has something. Plus, the fact that he limps and leads convinces me more that he has us beat than if he had raised and led, which we expect from a thinker.

I'm still calling, but I don't think we're strong enough.

Also, sure, I would raise w/ a straight or a flush draw. Even though we are close in outs, we are not as close in the strength of our hand when we hit those outs.

BigEndian · #24 08-15-2005, 01:52 PM

Raise if you're continuing (and you are). Calling here is dumm.

- Jim

TakeMeToTheRiver · #25 08-15-2005, 01:56 PM

I raise... and I think it would be close if I didn't hate the other two options so much.

Your relative position to the post-flop better is terrible and its unclear what outs (other than the backdoor flush) are good.

MP likely has a small to medium pocket pair. A set is unlikely, but not impossible -- with this many callers, a thinking player might bet the set expecting to be called and/or raised by several one pair and draw hands. MP could also have suited connectors that made him top pair or an open-ended draw.

It is impossible to put the other players on hands, but mediocre made hands and long shot draws are very likely with this board and action.

This is a good hand to either (1) narrow the field with or (2) learn quickly and relatively cheaply that you are way behind.

By the way, if some of the bad players are aggressive, I think I favor folding narrowly over calling for second place.

DMBFan23 · #26 08-15-2005, 01:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Re: I raised

[/ QUOTE ]

I never read these either. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

this one seems straight out of SSH, although I think the limit would be important here as it gives us something to work on when we have 'no reads'. the backdoor flush draw certainly helps us.

soweak. · #27 08-15-2005, 02:01 PM

So in one reply you put him on 98s or 87s, while in another you say you're afraid of a 3-bet from a mid PP on this board? Please try to be consistent with your read, or at least your replies.

Anyways, what hands does this thinking player 3-bet us here OOP?

callmedonnie · #28 08-15-2005, 02:18 PM

Sorry about all those responses. I should have read the whole thread and then responded. Forgive me.

I think a mid pp, 87, and 78 are all possibilities. When bad players limp a good player in MP often may as well w/ hands like these.

Anyway, I think he would three bet because a thinking player he knows you most likely have overcards. This board likely didn't hit you. I think you are more likely to get three bet if you force people out, because you improve his equity too, which I think is greater than yours. If you do get several people calling two cold, he may not raise, and all you have done is built a pot in which your equity has remained the same, or improved slightly.

sfer · #29 08-15-2005, 02:27 PM

He bet into me with 4 players behind. Why wouldn't he checkraise instead?

BigEndian · #30 08-15-2005, 02:29 PM

If you get 3-bet, you can release on the turn. It can happen, but it's not something you should fear.

You need to raise to improve your chances of winning this big pot with a crowd behind you and perfect relative position to the flop bettor. I would raise this even without the backdoor flush draw (which you only improve to about 1/17th of the time and people exagerate the value of frequently).

- Jim