First 19k hands at Party 3/6, find the leaks!

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
Something I never do at 3/6 is limp A9s-A2s and 88-22 UTG. I'm definately going to start to look into these hands, but I really don't like the situation if a TA-A raises behind me and I end up heads-up against him.

Any thoughts? I consider myself having pretty good table selection.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your table selection is good, I think you should be limping any pocket pair from any position. They are so easy to play... flop a set, print $. No set, fold the vast majority of the time.

Ax suited is a bit harder, at least for me. I am struggling to make these hands profitable, and I've tightened up considerably with these hands in early position.

[MaxPower]

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I have the same problem, Although i'm working on my VP$IP and PFR and they are going up now since i've started looking into openraising more and limping or raising behind weak openlimpers. Something I never do at 3/6 is limp A9s-A2s and 88-22 UTG. I'm definately going to start to look into these hands, but I really don't like the situation if a TA-A raises behind me and I end up heads-up against him.

Any thoughts? I consider myself having pretty good table selection.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are not going to break the bank with Axs in early position even in a loose passive game. I do think its worth playing if the game is loose passive.

The pocket pairs are much better hands for the typical party 3/6 games. Even if there is a raise behind you it is Ok as long as most pots are multiway.

The pocket pairs do well in the type of game that is very aggressive on the flop because you will almost always collect enough bets to make your set profitable. Most Party games are like this.

[JimRivett]

You claim your numbers are "somewhat arbitrary" and concede that you could have a "varying" optimal VPIP up to over 20%, but know 11% is below optimal, I'm sorry you still haven't convinced me.

Let's just say, and remember I'm not buying into your 16% number, that for whatever reason 16% is optimal, however depending upon your game over 20% can be optimal (your words not mine), a difference of +4 percent points above what you feel is optimal. Now based upon that couldn't a VPIP% of -4 percent points below the alleged optimal 16% also, depending upon your game, be acceptable?

You also ask what my numbers are suppose to show, well thay show that I've played over 50,000 hands with an (average) VPIP of below 14% and I may not as you say be crushing the games but I think I'm doing OK, perhaps or just maybe, a little better than most?

Jim

btw perhaps the secret to this discussion lie in your words "depending on postflop skill and style."

[lu_hawk]

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Jim,

I don't know if 16% is precisely the right number, but sthiefs graph is a decent approximation. I believe that most of the best players at these limits have a VP$IP of about 17-19%. The reason I believe this, besides the fact that I play this way, is that I believe that these players hardly ever make pre-flop errors and are still able to play that many hands.

I have a theory that that the difference between those in the 17-19% range and those who are much lower is mostly due to play in the blinds. I think some of these people play too tight in the blinds and that can have a large effect on your win rate.

I also think that win rates are very inaccurate based on the numbers of hands that most people have at any level in pokertracker. For instance, I have 46,156 hands at Party 3/6. My VP$IP is 18.96, my pre-flop raise % is 8.34 and my win rate is 3.33BB/100. However, even with 46,000 hands there is a large confidence interval around my win rate and it could be significantly lower in reality.

I would like to see CostaRicaBill's VP$IP by position to see how he plays the blinds.

One thing I noticed in CostaRicaBill's stats is that he does not attempt to steal very often. My percentage is close to 30%. Perhaps that is a little high, but I don't think so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm at 19% VPIP and I am very tight in the blinds, my feeling is that the extra VPIP comes from loosening up in late position. The 13%-14% VPIP'ers are probably folding things like K5s or J8s on the button, or 97s in the CO after a couple limpers. My VPIP on the button is twice as high as my VPIP UTG and for me at least that is where I am getting my extra VPIP.

30% attempt to steal seems about right. I don't remember what I am at 3/6 but at 2/4 I was about 33%. The 1/3 structure at 3/6 would make you want to steal less there though.

[pokerjo22]

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The 1/3 structure at 3/6 would make you want to steal less there though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you say that? I can see the reward is less, but won't the SB be less likely to defend as well?

[JimRivett]

Hello Max,

I agree with the concept that the graph illustrates, my "gut" tells me that perhaps it's a range that is optimal rather than a specific number.

I agree with your comments regarding the blinds and I also agree that observing the VPIP by position would give better feedback.

Jim

[wuarhg]

[ QUOTE ]
30% attempt to steal seems about right. I don't remember what I am at 3/6 but at 2/4 I was about 33%. The 1/3 structure at 3/6 would make you want to steal less there though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great info from everyone, One question about blind stealing. I've got that up from 15% to 20% and i'm still wondering, what kind of hands should I steal with. If I open-raise everything i'm going to limp from LMP (a bit tighter), CO and Button would that be a good starting plan? I usually do not raise JTo or even JTs but I raise hands like QTo, KTo if i'm first in (CO or Button).

And sometimes if I know the blinds will give up pretty much 80% of their hands I can raise with hands like Ax, Kx on the Button. Is my thinking pointing towards the right direction?

[sthief09]

nothing I say will convince you. you have your own beliefs and that's fine. 16 was a bit low for 3/6. as MP said, 17-19 is a good range. some people play very tight and accept decent wins. I always thought the point was to maximize profit though. that's why I'm willing to play more hands and try to make more. most people are like me in that respect. apparently you aren't. again, that's fine. just don't tell people that they're not too tight and to accept beating the game. I suspect somoene that psots his stats for review wants to improve. he can improve by adding a lot more hands. just because you are unwilling to add more marginally profitable hands doesn't mean he shouldn't be.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have the same problem, Although i'm working on my VP$IP and PFR and they are going up now since i've started looking into openraising more and limping or raising behind weak openlimpers. Something I never do at 3/6 is limp A9s-A2s and 88-22 UTG. I'm definately going to start to look into these hands, but I really don't like the situation if a TA-A raises behind me and I end up heads-up against him.

Any thoughts? I consider myself having pretty good table selection.

[/ QUOTE ]

Limping A2s UTG is going a little too far.

[/ QUOTE ]


no, it isn't

[MaxPower]

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I'm at 19% VPIP and I am very tight in the blinds, my feeling is that the extra VPIP comes from loosening up in late position. The 13%-14% VPIP'ers are probably folding things like K5s or J8s on the button, or 97s in the CO after a couple limpers. My VPIP on the button is twice as high as my VPIP UTG and for me at least that is where I am getting my extra VPIP.

30% attempt to steal seems about right. I don't remember what I am at 3/6 but at 2/4 I was about 33%. The 1/3 structure at 3/6 would make you want to steal less there though.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is true. Those are the type of hands I would play on the button in an unrasied pot. I think that contributes to it as well. I don't have any proof of the blinds theory, I'd like to compare some stats to see if it holds up. I just think play in the blinds is extremely critical.

Its true you are getting worse odds on a steal in 3/6, but it seems to work very often. The SB is going to be less likely to defend. I found that blind steals were very easy to deal with at that limit. People very rarely played back at me or got tricky. Many players would just check-fold if they missed the flop. At 5/10 and higher there is a lot more blind defense going on. That is my experince, but I haven't played the 3/6 games in a few months.