Liberal Blind Defense

[GreywolfNYC]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone not call here preflop getting 5.5:1?
Was my attempt to take it away on the flop unreasonable?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes to both.

[skp]

well, yours is a solid argument and one that I agree with. I might call with 52 in the bb if the sb raises and we are heads-up. Even then, it's just a "might call". In this spot, I don't know why one would call.

[skp]

But you are only looking at 52 vs. AK. But what about 52 vs. an overpair which the PFR is going to have a substantial minority of the time? What about 52 vs. AK but also the hands of the other players who might hit the flop even if teh PFR doesn't? Note that the second scenario will also occur a substantial minority of the time.

One could go blue in the face trying to run numbers on all the permutations.

At the end of the day, in a spot such as this, I prefer to exercise judgement (arather than pokerstoving etc.) which is of course based on experience IMO, that 52 off goes in the muck. You have to flop BIG often (and that ain't gonna happen) to reverse postflop losses that ocur when you catch a piece of the flop. I mean, even flopping two pairs ain't BIG with 52 off.

[lil feller]

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you should be able to find better times to put a move on someone.

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This isn't a tournament. It isn't about getting your money in at the best possible time. It's about squeezing every last drop of +EV you can find out of every situation you find it in. Whether or not Ike's situation is +EV is tough to say, I think, but the wait until a better spot thought doesn't apply here.

lf

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
you wont. there's no reason on earth to play 52o there. none. it's mindless spewage

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell me you aren't serious. Please. The only hand he is worse than 5.5:1 dog against is 55. This decision is close, but it certainly isn't an automatic fold. What kind of TAG are we talking about here? Is he deceptive or Straighforward? Whats our image? Will he believe us if we represent a big hand? Is he capable of folding if he believes us? Will he pay us off when the flop is A34 and he has AK and its 3 bets on the turn?

This kind of hand plays very well against opponents whose standards are easy to identify. If we flop bottom pair, or 2nd pair, it only takes 1 BB against a straightforward opponent to know where we're at, and then we can act accordingly. When we flop trips, 2pair, or a straight however, sed TAG will never put 25 into our range, and will pay us off liberally.

I'm not sure if a call is correct, but its close. To dismiss it blindly is just silly.

lf

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
When we flop trips, 2pair, or a straight however, sed TAG will never put 25 into our range, and will pay us off liberally.


[/ QUOTE ]
Do you have any idea how rarely you'll flop trips, two pair, or a straight?

Anyway, I'm done with this thread.

[AceHigh]

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What about 52 vs. AK but also the hands of the other players who might hit the flop even if teh PFR doesn't?

[/ QUOTE ]

Everybody else folded, so it's heads up.

[ QUOTE ]
But what about 52 vs. an overpair which the PFR is going to have a substantial minority of the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why you need the 5.5:1, because sometimes you will be way behind.

FWIW, I think this a situation where you can apply the DS rule about if it's close and you would call all-in, then usually it is correct to call. I would definately call an all-in player here wouldn't you?

[ QUOTE ]
I mean, even flopping two pairs ain't BIG with 52 off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that's just silly talk. How many times will your opponent outflop 2 pair when the flop is X-5-2?

There's got to be some price where playing any two cards is profitable isn't there? I would guess 5.5:1 is past that point.

[SaintAces]

check fold that flop

[SoBeDude]

nothing wrong with your play, in spite of what so many people have said in this thread.

There is nothing wrong with taking a shot at a bluff when heads-up, especially when the pot is already that big.

And that is a very scary flop, meaning it might be just as scary to your opponent. If he doesn't have an A or a 9, then that board sucks for him and any other hand. Just because he's a TAG doesn't mean he only plays hands that hit the flop, or only hands with an ace. For instance, if he's holding 66-88,TT-KK he hates the flop, or KJs, KQ, QJs.

A non-pair hand misses the flop about 75% of the time, so just because he raised preflop doesn't mean he's going to be in a position to call your raises postflop, even when you miss the flop as well.

If he had folded to your flop 3bet, you'd have looked like a hero.

And last I checked, the "T" in TAG stands for tight. this means you're actually trying the play against someone with a working fold-button, not against some loose-donk who keeps calling with any sort of prayer of a hand.

-Scott