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#21
03-03-2005, 04:37 PM
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Re: Do you open-limp from EP with Axs?
[ QUOTE ]
This is only tangentially related. (In fact, even that might be a stretch.) [/ QUOTE ] I'm quoting this only to show how you need to customize your PF game to the game and quit staring at the cards and a chart...not that the two situations have anything in common. [ QUOTE ] You know how you can hear something over and over again, but it just doesn't click? And then it does. James said in a recent post Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My mentality going into pretty much any flop, aside from when I have AA or KK, is "How am I going to win this hand without a showdown?" Some flops certainly change that, but this didn't seem to be one of them. [/ QUOTE ] You know how you can hear someone talk about something like it really impacted them, but it doesn't you and you're not sure why? That's where I'm at here. However, I do remember someone talking about giving yourself more than 1 way to win a hand by 3 betting PF (with I think it was pockets 8)...in reading this I was assuming he was talking about winning without a showdown. That was the first time I thought about that concept (2 ways to win). Can you elaborate on how the quote you put here impacts your game? When you hold A8s UTG, how does your understanding there change your thought process? 
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#22
03-03-2005, 04:37 PM
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Re: Do you open-limp from EP with Axs?
[ QUOTE ]
However, I'm also folding if I don't hit a flush draw, trips, or two pair. [/ QUOTE ] What makes AXs so good is that it has top pair value. You have to be able to flop an ace and play well out of position if you are going to play AXs in EP. If you aren't playing this for top pair value, you shouldn't be playing it at all. By your logic we should limp with 65s before AXs. At least 65 can make a few straights. Krishan
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#23
03-03-2005, 04:51 PM
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Re: Do you open-limp from EP with Axs?
Krishanleong... if an Ace hits, I'm not NECESSARILY folding. However, I AM going to play it cautiously. I'll start by betting out. If I hit some resistance, it really comes down to the read on the player/players resisting.
Example: I limp with A8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] from UTG+1. 2 other limpers and the blinds come along. 5 to the flop. Flop is 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Checked to me and I bet. MP3 raises, button calls, and blinds fold. Do you call the raise? Again, it depends on reads, but you are probably beat here. You are looking at 3 outs and no backdoors, IF someone isn't sitting on AT. On the other hand, if the flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], then your 8s are definitely good, and you have backdoor straight and flush draws. No reason to stop playing when you are raised here. If J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] hits the turn, how do you play from there? I already felt resistance with the flop raise, so I'm going to check and fold if both players are still calling, since there is only a small straight draw here, and button's cold calling two on the flop indicates he has more than a straight draw. SOMEONE has an Ace, and with an 8 kicker, can you believe you are ahead here? You could go to the river and hope to hit your 3 outer, but I wouldn't, barring specific player reads. You lose more money than you win in this situation. So, all in all I understand that there is high card value, but playing it after the flop takes a lot of skill. That doesn't mean just bet and raise your pair of Aces, just like it doesn't mean that you should fold your pair of Aces. But, I'm not ecstatic about playing a pair of Aces with an 8 kicker, that's for sure. And that is my point [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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#24
03-03-2005, 05:08 PM
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Re: Do you open-limp from EP with Axs?
zoot...to test for strenght, you might check EP..if it comes back to you for 2, you pretty much know you're not good.
In one of the SSHE quizzes, there's a hand a lot like this and Ed says "You check also to check for strength"...just an idea.
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#25
03-03-2005, 05:20 PM
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Re: Do you open-limp from EP with Axs?
[ QUOTE ]
Can you elaborate on how the quote you put here impacts your game? When you hold A8s UTG, how does your understanding there change your thought process? [/ QUOTE ] I have, for the past few months, had a post-flop aggression factor which hovered around 1.8. Like others, I wanted to play more aggressively, but did not see how without just being more reckless. In the (admittedly very small number of) hands I have played since thinking about this, I could see many situations where I could bet/raise (or even fold) where I would have been checking/calling before, and what I was thinking about was not "value" or "protection" per se, but winning without a showdown. I was playing more aggressively, and in ways which I think were appropriate. I guess the most concrete thing is I started to think about how infrequently semi-bluffs need to work to be profittable, and how raising pre-flop changes the way people think about your hand post flop. A better example of pre-flop play (than Axs early) might be raising KQo in easly position. It is not just that this hand plays better against fewer opponents; it is that they play differently, and more pots are won without a showdown. I guess there was just something about James's comment that stuck with something else I had in the back of my mind, and maybe I am making more of it than it deserves (almost assuredly, at this point [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). Maybe in two weeks I will wonder what I was thinking. For now though, I think it helped me. In short, your quote reminded me of it. It relates to playing the game, not the cards.
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#26
03-03-2005, 05:26 PM
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Re: Do you open-limp from EP with Axs?
How about Option #4. If flops are routinely 4-5+ handed for 1 or 2 bets preflop, yes.
I've been playing anywhere between 4/8 and 20/40 live and 0.5/1 and 15/30 online in the last 4 weeks, and I don't see that range narrowing anytime soon.
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#28
03-03-2005, 05:31 PM
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Re: Do you open-limp from EP with Axs?
I think I'm so aggressive, I'm might instinctly fit this mold. I'm have a 3.1 postflop AF, and have calm down on later streets but made up for it on getting more aggressive on the flop. Now that my PFR% is going up, people really notice the aggression [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
I was playing last night and someone says, "Do you raise everything?"...I didn't say a word since I had Big Slick and a Kxxr just fell... I know I win quite a few pots without a showdown...that's not something that I've specifically looked at. I'll have to check it out when I get home (I think that's in PT).
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#29
03-03-2005, 07:28 PM
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Re: Do you open-limp from EP with Axs?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] However, I'm also folding if I don't hit a flush draw, trips, or two pair. [/ QUOTE ] What makes AXs so good is that it has top pair value. You have to be able to flop an ace and play well out of position if you are going to play AXs in EP. If you aren't playing this for top pair value, you shouldn't be playing it at all. By your logic we should limp with 65s before AXs. At least 65 can make a few straights. Krishan [/ QUOTE ] I think you play Axs for the possible top pair, as well as the nut flush draw. If you only play it for the top pair possibilities, that may be why it isn't paying off well.
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#30
03-03-2005, 07:34 PM
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Re: Do you open-limp from EP with Axs?
[ QUOTE ]
If you only play it for the top pair possibilities, that may be why it isn't paying off well. [/ QUOTE ] Your probably right. I'll stop folding the flop when I flop 4 to a flush. I knew something felt wrong about playing AX suited. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] Krishan
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