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#11
05-19-2004, 06:49 AM
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Re: Pocket Pair Question: Raise or Call?
You will not win with pocket 4's unimproved, so you need to spike a set. Thus you want many opponents in the pot and to be able to see the flop as cheap as possible. You hit your set, hmm... one time out of 8-ish, meaning that if you only have 4 other players that see the flop with you, you need to make up another 3-ish small bets post-flop, which shouldn't be a problem. But if you (or someone else for that matter) raise pre-flop, then you have invested 1 big bet (2 small bets = 1 big bet) pre-flop, meaning that you need to make 3-ish big bets post-flop instead of 3-ish small bets. So if you or someone else raise pre-flop, your implied odds is cut in half. I think...
As for pocket T's, raise pre-flop. They will win more than their fair share (meaning that if get 4 callers, you only need to win one time out of 5 to break even with your raise, but since you'll win more than one time out of 5, you're making money pre-flop with your raise) so raise it up. T's can win unimproved. Now, I'm just a newbie, so I may be wrong. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] 
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#12
05-19-2004, 06:53 AM
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Re: Pocket Pair Question: Raise or Call?
With TT and higher you can often win the pot without improving, but the more players you have in the pot with you the less the chance of taking it down unimproved. Therefore, you should typically be raising these hands from all positions to try to narrow the opposition.
Meaning that you wouldn't raise TT in the BB after a couple of limpers? Sure, you won't win as often, but you still stand to win more than your fair share in that situation.
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#13
05-19-2004, 06:56 AM
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Re: Pocket Pair Question: Raise or Call?
You need to improve your 4's to a set to win. If someone raise pre-flop, your implied odds are cut in half, meaning you have to make twice the amount post-flop as you had to before the raise to make up for it. You want in cheap with low pairs and drawing hands.
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#14
05-19-2004, 09:24 AM
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Re: Pocket Pair Question: Raise or Call?
With 44 you want to see the flop cheaply and get out if you miss the set. If you spike a set, you really want to root for good high cards to go with it as nobody will ever suspect you have a winner. My favorite flop with 44 is A4x. Somebody hit, and many Party crazies will stay in with any A to the river. I start ramming and jamming on the turn. If the second A falls they will cap every street with AJ and your boat is the winner (usually). 44 has great implied odds, but you still want to see it cheap, cheap, cheap.
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#15
05-19-2004, 10:31 AM
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Re: Pocket Pair Question: Raise or Call?
Joker you did interpret me correctly and you raise an interesting point. I can't remember the last time I didn't raise/3-bet with AA/KK/QQ/JJ/TT. I didn't look closely enough at the data to see how many callers I got for each hand on average. I'll have to check that tonight. But assuming that I raise AA/KK/QQ/JJ at approximately the same frequency (i.e. the number of times it's 3-bets to me--where I cap AA/KK, possibly cap QQ, probably fold JJ--is negligible) the fields should be equally limited, should they not?
I don't want to reopen another, go nowhere, raise JJ thread. I'll raise them every chance I get. But I'm just wondering if you actually do in fact want lots of callers because they seem to win substantially more than their fair share.
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#18
05-19-2004, 05:21 PM
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Re: Pocket Pair Question: Raise or Call?
Oh OK, I didn't realize that you're scenario had hero in the BB. Anyways, I'd still raise this hand because it figures to be the best hand. I think interpreted my post as advocating raising TT and higher soley to narrow the field. This is one of the reasons for raising, but another reason is because of the intrinsic value of getting more money in the pot with the best hand.
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#19
05-19-2004, 06:53 PM
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Re: Pocket Pair Question: Raise or Call?
[ QUOTE ]
44, call and flop a set. [/ QUOTE ] ahhh, so that's how you do it! [ QUOTE ] Burn Phil's book. [/ QUOTE ] it may come in handy if you run out of T.P. i just don't see any reason to make such a permanent decision. cheers!
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#20
05-19-2004, 11:03 PM
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Re: Pocket Pair Question: Raise or Call?
[ QUOTE ]
Joker you did interpret me correctly and you raise an interesting point. I can't remember the last time I didn't raise/3-bet with AA/KK/QQ/JJ/TT. I didn't look closely enough at the data to see how many callers I got for each hand on average. I'll have to check that tonight. But assuming that I raise AA/KK/QQ/JJ at approximately the same frequency (i.e. the number of times it's 3-bets to me--where I cap AA/KK, possibly cap QQ, probably fold JJ--is negligible) the fields should be equally limited, should they not? I don't want to reopen another, go nowhere, raise JJ thread. I'll raise them every chance I get. But I'm just wondering if you actually do in fact want lots of callers because they seem to win substantially more than their fair share. [/ QUOTE ] Actually what I think he means is you've been playing them properly thus far getting the proper results. Therefore, your three betting these hands has forced out the random hands that chase you down. I believe the concept is, if you were to just call with JJ, QQ, TT the people staying in would greatly skew your results. My interpretation is that you want some callers yes because you're favored to win unimproved but with a whole table hunting you down you're going to get caught. The reason for the raise is it achieves the balance between getting paid off unimproved as well as beating off the rabid lemur's. Of course I could be way off in left field. Odds aren't always my strong point as those straddle's(sp) showed.
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