|
|
#13
03-02-2004, 04:24 PM
|
|||
|
|||
Re: TT from button in a loose game
No, I mean small, or atleast medium, had it been twice the size, flatcalling might have been correct.
You have a pretty good edge on the flop and calling 2 there with many of the hands that the others hold will most likely not be correct. Also, if an overcard comes on the turn, you cant be sure where you are, so IŽd rather push my edge when I know I have one. 
|
|
#14
03-02-2004, 04:41 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: TT from button in a loose game
Cuz the pot is small.
This is funny, because if you had said "because the pot is big", this would also be a reason to raise. To elaborate, I think the reasons that Henke gave for calling are actually reasons to raise: One more bet is probably not going to drive out anyone with a gutshot, anyone who has bottom-middle-top pair or anyone who just holds some overcards. You make money off these calls. My opponents will be easier to read on the turn. If an A,K,Q,J,8 or 6 comes, BB bets and CO raises, I can probably fold. However, if I bet, I will bully my opponents into check-calling (or perhaps check-raising). I disagree with this. If you just call, you're not letting anyone know that you have as good a hand as an overpair, if there is a bet and a raise without you raising, it might just be something like "mid pair decides to bet out as no one has shown real strength, top pair raises for the same reason" or "A bets to see if he can win the pot, B decides no one has anything or they would have bet it and raises", or really any number of combinations. A bet and a raise into a flop raiser shows a lot more strength. If BB bets, I can raise (if it's a "safe" card) and thus get even more money in than raising the flop. If BB fails to bet, some of my other two opponents probably will and I can drive the rest out with a double bet on the turn. OK, say a J falls on the turn though, or any overcard or card you decide to be scared of, and because it isn't a "safe" card, you fear raising. However, you're probably ahead, but you lost the value you would have gained from a flop raise and you don't make it up on a later street because you got scared. Just get the money in while you're ahead.
|
|
#15
03-02-2004, 05:06 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: TT from button in a loose game
[ QUOTE ]
One more bet is probably not going to drive out anyone with a gutshot, anyone who has bottom-middle-top pair or anyone who just holds some overcards. You make money off these calls. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, but I make more money from them calling two on the turn. [ QUOTE ] My opponents will be easier to read on the turn. If an A,K,Q,J,8 or 6 comes, BB bets and CO raises, I can probably fold. However, if I bet, I will bully my opponents into check-calling (or perhaps check-raising). [/ QUOTE ] I disagree with this. If you just call, you're not letting anyone know that you have as good a hand as an overpair, if there is a bet and a raise without you raising, it might just be something like "mid pair decides to bet out as no one has shown real strength, top pair raises for the same reason" or "A bets to see if he can win the pot, B decides no one has anything or they would have bet it and raises", or really any number of combinations. A bet and a raise into a flop raiser shows a lot more strength. [/ QUOTE ] IMO with passive opponents, a bet and a raise into a flop raiser means "I've got two pair. But I don't care, cuz I've got the str8". So yes, you're right. A bet and a raise into a flop raiser means strenght. But lets say I raise the flop, and an A comes on the turn. How many passive opponents do you know that would bet their A3 into the flop raiser? With this flop, a raise from CO or MP would probably mean a hand like 79, 86, 77, 99 etc. [ QUOTE ] If BB bets, I can raise (if it's a "safe" card) and thus get even more money in than raising the flop. If BB fails to bet, some of my other two opponents probably will and I can drive the rest out with a double bet on the turn. OK, say a J falls on the turn though, or any overcard or card you decide to be scared of, and because it isn't a "safe" card, you fear raising. However, you're probably ahead, but you lost the value you would have gained from a flop raise and you don't make it up on a later street because you got scared. [/ QUOTE ] If a J would fall, BB check and say CO bet, I will raise. If an A would fall, BB check and MP bet I would fold. If everyone would check to me, I would bet. If it would be bet and raised, I would fold. Yes, I lost the +EV from betting the flop, but in some cases (like when it's bet and raised) I probably saved a bet. In this case (when one of the possible 26 "safe" cards fell) I even gained 3BB. Let's do a small math example. Assume there are 23 safe cards and 23 dangerous cards. If one of the safe cards fall, I raise the turn and gain 3 extra bb. Lets assume that when the unsafe card falls, BB still bets and everyone just calls and that my hand still is good. Then I'll loose the 3 sb I would have gained if I raised the flop. With these assumptions, calling the flop is worth 3 extra sb. [ QUOTE ] Just get the money in while you're ahead. [/ QUOTE ] I don't agree with this statement. 22 is one of the best "made hands" preflop, but it still doesn't mean that one should get the money in while ahead. Please, forgive me if I sound harsh (how is that spelled? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]), if I do, it's unintentional. Maybe if I throw some smileys in? [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
|
|
#16
03-02-2004, 06:14 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: TT from button in a loose game
Yes, but I make more money from them calling two on the turn.
You don't know that you are going to be able to get them to call two on the turn though. You might not be bet into, or they might fold. But lets say I raise the flop, and an A comes on the turn. How many passive opponents do you know that would bet their A3 into the flop raiser? Not many, you're right. But, this is assuming that: a) an A falls on the turn b) they have a hand like A3 forgetting a) for a second and just talking generally: if they do have hands like A3, and you do somehow find a way to get in 2 bets on the turn against these "passive opponents" who have nothing, do you think they're going to call 2 bets on the turn with one overcard to the board? If a J would fall, BB check and say CO bet, I will raise. If an A would fall, BB check and MP bet I would fold. So they're passive enough that they're only going to be betting the turn unless they have at least top pair, but you'd still feel comfortable raising them if a J fell? This seems inconsistent. 22 is one of the best "made hands" preflop, but it still doesn't mean that one should get the money in while ahead. 22 is not one of the best "made hands" preflop, for 3 reasons: 1. Your opponents could easily be playing another small pair and you are massively behind. 2. Your reverse implied odds are atrocious. 3. You are either slightly ahead or very behind. This does not occur in this situation, unless you suspect your opponents have an overpair. Your reverse implied odds are fine because they're going to pay you off with pairs lower than yours. Please, forgive me if I sound harsh Don't worry, we're here to discuss.
|
|
#17
03-02-2004, 07:03 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: TT from button in a loose game
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, but I make more money from them calling two on the turn. You don't know that you are going to be able to get them to call two on the turn though. You might not be bet into, or they might fold. [/ QUOTE ] If they fold, I'm happy. If they don't bet into me I'm sad. That's when I'm losing money as opposed to raising the flop. However, if they check to me on the turn, I'm pretty sure I have the best hand. Especially if an overcard falls. So I'm not that sad [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [ QUOTE ] But lets say I raise the flop, and an A comes on the turn. How many passive opponents do you know that would bet their A3 into the flop raiser? Not many, you're right. But, this is assuming that: a) an A falls on the turn b) they have a hand like A3 forgetting a) for a second and just talking generally: if they do have hands like A3, and you do somehow find a way to get in 2 bets on the turn against these "passive opponents" who have nothing, do you think they're going to call 2 bets on the turn with one overcard to the board? [/ QUOTE ] If they don't I'm happy. The pot is big enough that I'm happy with winning it right away. [ QUOTE ] If a J would fall, BB check and say CO bet, I will raise. If an A would fall, BB check and MP bet I would fold. So they're passive enough that they're only going to be betting the turn unless they have at least top pair, but you'd still feel comfortable raising them if a J fell? This seems inconsistent. [/ QUOTE ] Well, if the bet comes from CO, he might feel that he can buy the pot if no one bet. Also, it's a J, not an A, which makes it slightly less likely to have hit CO:s hand. And a third point is that CO might have a 9, but was afraid to raise top pair on the flop. But once it's checked to him, he'll bet it. My raise here would then give my opponents 4:1, which would make me ALOT of money if they called with a worse hand and might even isolate me and CO for the river. Even if an A would fall and CO bet, I still think a case can be made for raising. Because when you raise, you'll probably get a free showdown even if he has the A. In short, I'm HOPING that CO will be the one who bets. [ QUOTE ] 22 is one of the best "made hands" preflop, but it still doesn't mean that one should get the money in while ahead. 22 is not one of the best "made hands" preflop, for 3 reasons: 1. Your opponents could easily be playing another small pair and you are massively behind. 2. Your reverse implied odds are atrocious. 3. You are either slightly ahead or very behind. [/ QUOTE ] 1. Yes, my opponent could have one of the other 5% of the pocket pairs. Still one of the best made hands preflop though, only 12 other pocket pairs that beat it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] 2. Yes. 3. Yes. [ QUOTE ] This does not occur in this situation, unless you suspect your opponents have an overpair. Your reverse implied odds are fine because they're going to pay you off with pairs lower than yours. [/ QUOTE ] I don't know if it's really reverse implied odds, but I put the raise in on the turn because someone hunting the gutshot wouldn't call on the end. So I'm sort of getting reverse implied odds from those hands. But I know quite certainly that I'm the favourite right now, so I don't know if that can be called reverse implied odds. But the point I was trying to make (although the example was very bad cuz it's very exaggerated) is that with 22, there are a lot of cards that will make it "unplayable", but only two that will help it. The same holds true here. Any A,K,Q,J,9,8,7,6 or 5 might give one of my opponents a better hand or a powerhouse. So, in that way, I'm either slightly ahead. To be fair though, I'm more ahead than 22 is against any pf hand w/o a 2. I might even in this case be far behind if one of my opponents slowplayed 99,77,55 or 86. But that's not really probable... To clarify my point: I don't think "get the money in while you're ahead" can be applied as a mantra. If there are many cards that might make your opponents a big hand, I don't see any reason to throw in bets early if the opponents won't fold, especially since my hand probably won't get any better. With every card that comes that doesn't help their hand, my edge gets bigger. Also, when the bet size doubles, and it's only one card left, I punish their implied odds severely if they are drawing to some 8.5% gutshot. However, I was really hoping that BB wouldn't bet, so that someone else (hopefully CO, as I mentioned above) would take a stab at the pot because then my raise would have had some leverage!
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
