Cards in the muck - dead hand?

bernie,

Yes you are absolutely right about the ruling . . . if you make two assumptions.

First you are assuming that the original post did not give us all the information. Certainly if the floorman gets to the table and the dealer tells him "Well player B said You've got it . . . but I want to see it and before he even finished Player A had tossed his hand in the muck" then it would not appear to be an angle by Player B. But that is not what we were told happeend. I assume that we were given all the facts in the original post.

Your second assumption was cards were not clearly identifiable. In This case the Dealer clearly stated that knew which two cards were Players A hand. There is no reason to pretend that this hand is now in doubt. Of course if the dealer indicated some uncertainity your point would have validity. But i object to the view of the muck as some sort of magical card killing pile.

[Klepton]

this is not a case of technicalities. player b is an angle shooter, period. he should not be allowed to ever win a pot like this.

it is people like this that make the new players scared to ever return.

[bernie]

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But that is not what we were told happeend. I assume that we were given all the facts in the original post.


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And given the facts we were given, there's no evidence that this was an angle shoot. Not even that player B was an angle shooter. Read it again.

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Dealer explains that Player A bet on the river. Player B then says "You got it man". Player A then tosses his cards at the muck. Player B THEN throws in the bet and says "His hand is dead - it's in the muck".

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I'd say Player B could just be quick thinking and thought well enough in the situation to toss his bet in. Again, there is no indication that he was trying to get the guy to muck his hand that way. Player A is the one that boned himself.

[ QUOTE ]
Your second assumption was cards were not clearly identifiable. In This case the Dealer clearly stated that knew which two cards were Players A hand. There is no reason to pretend that this hand is now in doubt. Of course if the dealer indicated some uncertainity your point would have validity. But i object to the view of the muck as some sort of magical card killing pile.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if a guy tosses his cards on top of the muck, his cards obviously identifiable as they are clearly on top and everyone sees them, or they go 1/2 way under the muck, but still identifiable as they are the only 2 that are hanging out of the muck, you can then retrieve them. This is what you are saying. Do you see the door that opens?

The muck is the muck. Cards touch them, they are dead. It makes things much easier to think of it as such and use it that way, don't you think?

b

[Randy_Refeld]

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The muck is the muck. Cards touch them, they are dead. It makes things much easier to think of it as such and use it that way, don't you thin

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a rule (well it might be some place, but not any place where they understand the reason for rules).

I have said this many time, but for any first time readers. If a hand touches the muck it is fouled. A fouled hand MAY be declared dead.

If a player wishes to make a claim for the pot with a fouled hand the floor ahs to rule on whether or not the hand shall be declared dead.

In a case where a player bets and reacts to a player verbally conceding the pot the best hadn will win if the hands are identifaible. IN this case tehy are so the best ahnd wins. If player A's hand is not retrievable he wins becasue he acted on player B's verbal concession. Player B is receiving the break here by determining if if his hand is the winner instead of declaring A's hand unretrievable.

[NLSoldier]

People say stupid crap like "you got it man" all teh time, and then make teh crying call. they are just trying to show how good they are because they "knew they were beat" but called anyways. player A is an idiot for letting go of his cards before the pot was shipped.

[Benoit]

[ QUOTE ]
Dealer explains that Player A bet on the river. Player B then says "You got it man". Player A then tosses his cards at the muck. Player B THEN throws in the bet and says "His hand is dead - it's in the muck". At this point mayhem ensues and I'm called over.

[/ QUOTE ]

Player B stating "you got it man" should be considered verbally binding, in the sense that he was admitting defeat so a raise is not called for.

Player A in this angle shoot "folded" out of turn without facing a raise. Since a player folding is not binding when they are not facing a bet, then in the spirit of the rules you could say the same here.

Player A mistakenly mucked his cards when player B verbally stated his intent to call/fold, but not raise. Player A or B can therefore still ask to see player A's cards if they are easily retrievable from the muck.

[SA125]

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How do you rule this one?

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An angle shoot that worked. B wins. I made the same mistake A did once and it cost me. Live and learn.

When a guy says "You win, etc.", but holds onto his cards, you have three choices. You can remain silent to see what the dealer does. You can ask him if he's calling. Or you can tell him to muck his hand if he's folding. All of the options include holding onto your cards.

Player B wins the pot and gets murdered in the parking lot a few hours later.

No matter how obvious the angle shoot is, player A mucked his cards without showing them, so I don't see how his hand is anything other than dead.

[bdypdx]

The river:
Player A bets.
Player B says, "You got it man." (verbal declaration)
Player A tosses in his cards.
Player B *then* calls.

If the rule is for a verbal declaration to be binding and that "You got it man" counts as a fold, then I'd rule in Player A's favor. If "You got it man" is *not* considered a binding verbal declaration, B should get the pot as Player A didn't protect his hand.

It'd be interesting to know if B had made any sort of forward motion with his cards. If he had, I'd definitly think that his statement should be considered a fold.

Personally, I don't let go of my cards until the pot is coming my way.

Never in a million years is "you got it man" going to be a verbal/binding declaration of a fold.