River decision, AA and get check-raised - Page 2

sean c · #11 09-12-2005, 04:35 PM

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Do you think I'm ahead that often when I'm check-raised?

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Yes. Remember you have only played six orbits with this guy. I would need one heck of a read to bet/fold this and I would NEVER check this through.

W. Deranged · #12 09-12-2005, 04:38 PM

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Here's my thinking and please explain if you disagree.

I only want to bet here if I can fold to a CR. I don't want to put in a possible 2 bets here.

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One of the major skills to be learned in limit hold'em is to be courageous about value-betting.

I very often here players in live games comment that they "don't bet because they don't want to get raised." This is a tight-weak attitude that is understandable but which you should fight to get over.

private joker · #13 09-12-2005, 04:41 PM

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I very often here players in live games comment that they "don't bet because they don't want to get raised." This is a tight-weak attitude that is understandable but which you should fight to get over.

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I agree, but the flip side is you should be prepared to fold to a raise. Generally river check-raises can beat one pair. Even in the OP's previous example with 75o, Villain had 2 pair. I think this river is a bet/fold.

Aces are just a pair.

W. Deranged · #14 09-12-2005, 04:44 PM

It's pretty read-dependent and will differ at the various limits. I agree there will be times I will fold this, particularly in live games where I have a better handle on opponents, but I'm calling a river check-raise here against an online unknown usually.

My general point was more just about the OP's attitude toward river value-betting. Failing to often bet because scare cards come and one has the possibility of getting raised is not a good attitude. Even if hero is actually risking slightly more than 1 bet here to win one, I think it's fine because our hero is going to win a large majority of the time here.

hobbsmann · #15 09-12-2005, 04:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's my thinking and please explain if you disagree.

I only want to bet here if I can fold to a CR. I don't want to put in a possible 2 bets here.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the major skills to be learned in limit hold'em is to be courageous about value-betting.

I very often here players in live games comment that they "don't bet because they don't want to get raised." This is a tight-weak attitude that is understandable but which you should fight to get over.

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To add to this, you need to be even more courageous when you are up against screwballs like the villian you've described. If you played out a ton of hands with this guy you'll run into a ton of situations where you will bet the river and get called by a wide range of holdings, even on scary boards. These times will far outweigh the times you get c/r'ed an lose and thus will show a profit in the long run. Also note that everytime you are c/r'ed doesn't mean you will lose as players like the villian tend be oddly maniacal at times and will bluff raise at seemingly random intervals.

#16 09-12-2005, 04:49 PM

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Do you think I'm ahead that often when I'm check-raised?

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A check-raise may mean he's ahead. A check-raise may mean he thinks you'll fold to a check-raise (especially after he got you with one last time). A check-raise may mean he was slowplaying a high pocket pair (like a moron), and now that no other high cards showed up, he is finally going to try and get paid off.

You don't know which. I think that's way more than a 10% chance of you being ahead.

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He's capable of playing any two cards (as show by his 57o Limp), and has not shown one tricky move in 66 hands.

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There's a fine line between tricky moves and stupid moves. The previous check-raise alone straddles that line pretty closely. He's got to be capable of more.

But that's all by the by: THE POT IS TOO BIG. Bet and call.

Dagger78 · #17 09-12-2005, 04:51 PM

Ok, I think I'm being misunderstood a bit here. My value betting the river is obvious. I'm betting top pair or better on this board, HU every single time. I think the real question is whether I can fold to a CR. I feel this is one of those times you can bet/fold. 90% of the time he's going to fold or call with a weak pair. I just believe I'm behind 95% of times I'm check-raised.

Dagger78 · #18 09-12-2005, 04:53 PM

I had paid off his previous check-raise.

W. Deranged · #19 09-12-2005, 04:55 PM

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Ok, I think I'm being misunderstood a bit here. My value betting the river is obvious. I'm betting top pair or better on this board, HU every single time. I think the real question is whether I can fold to a CR. I feel this is one of those times you can bet/fold. 90% of the time he's going to fold or call with a weak pair. I just believe I'm behind 95% of times I'm check-raised.

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Got it...

I don't think folding here would be particularly bad but I think calling is going to be slightly +EV basically because this player has shown enough indication that he can be crazy/tricky/erratic that I can't say anything about him with greater than like 80% certainty.

#20 09-12-2005, 04:58 PM

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I had paid off his previous check-raise.

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Yes you did, and I'm sure he knows YOU know you paid him off last time. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Edit: It's becoming clear that you're simply scared of this guy because he called you to the river once and won. Some people will continually call you down to the river, with the meagerest of crap (just like he did the time before). A check-raise shouldn't even be on your mind in this situation. The fact that it's weighing so heavy on you to the point where it affects your play on subsequent hands indicates a leak you need to fix (and one he may be exploiting).

How do I know this? I have had the same leak. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]