In which I checkraise with undercards.

[stripsqueez]

i've been thinking about your post and it occurs to me that i dont think i have ever raised pre-flop before the blinds and check raised the flop ! - i sometimes check raise the turn after leading all the way but never the flop

i suppose its common for the button to have a small pocket pair and assuming he can find a fold on the turn this play has some potential - if it didnt work its definately chip spewing though

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[sammy_g]

I wish everyone would talk about your flop play instead of preflop cause that is much more interesting.

I'm not a good enough player to know if it's right. The pot is big... I probably fire again on the turn and river almost no matter what cards come.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
i am on the side of the arguements that QJo is not profitable in MP in alot of games. however i could of course be wrong. your hand is the problem that QJo has in MP. seriously though, i have no idea why you mentioned your 50k sample size as backup for why the hand is profitable. i also apologize for posting a one-liner, but i dont see why you are offended by that. i thought my comment was food for thought and a good opener for discussion. i really dont know what to say about the flop play other than its unorthodox. i have nothing that i find important to comment on it so i chose not to. would you have preferred i didnt reply at all?

editted because i misread your reply.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very cool, thanks for the more detailed response. I thought you were just making a "fold PF cuz QJo sucks" post, which I actually expected a few people to make, just not you. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

As far as whether or not raising here was going to be profitable, I'll say that had I known that Button was going to coldcall with everyone else, I wouldn't have raised (he's a 20% VPIP and was folding a ton), but in this situation it backfired. That's part of the risk of raising this hand, and I wouldn't raise it if everyone was loose, but in this situation I stood a pretty good chance of getting it HU or 3-ways with initiative against a loose-passive player, and even OOP, I'm ok with that. My pithy remark was only in response to the suggestion that I thought you were making, which was to fold PF everytime. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Rob

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
QJ is showing a small profit for me raising first-in in MP in 5/10 6max over 50k hands (small sample size beware)

[/ QUOTE ]
Even disregarding the sample size issue (which is difficult), this argument is lame. The fact that QJo shows a profit when you average together all situations where you open-raise two off the button does not mean that at this particular table it was a profitably raise in this position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still think that it was a profitable raise at this table, though certainly a closer decision.

Rob

[Barklad]

I like the check-raise on the flop because you are most likely eliminating the SB, but even if the Button was just taking a stab at the pot he is unlikely to fold to this raise. What do you do if the turn blanks?

[admiralfluff]

I like the open, but wouldn't if everyone behind you was a tard (which you already said in OP). I hate the flop play. His coldcall means he will rarely have a hand that would be a tough decision in this spot, and he can't be that terrible of a hand reader to make a bad fold here.

What range did you put him on? Were you committed to investing another turn bet if he called the c/r? I like the raise pf, but say c/f the flop with so many buyers.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]


What range did you put him on? Were you committed to investing another turn bet if he called the c/r? I like the raise pf, but say c/f the flop with so many buyers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Handrange: AQs (not spades, I have the Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]), AJs, somewhat likely. Most likely: 55-99. KQs possible. KJs very unlikely. The big thing about a coldcall from a guy like this is that his range actually features very few hands which will hit this flop, but he will bet on the flop when checked to quite often, at least based on his flop agg stats, which seem to indicate much flop betting/raising/folding and MUCH turn folding. This guy was in the neighborhood of 4/3.5/2, averaging to around a 3 in aggression.

Rob

[imported_stealthcow]

i dont really know what to say, i'm definetly with tstone on this one in that its unorthodox.

my biggest complaint is that if the button here knows much about reading hands and has 55-88 he's calling down because he knows you can't have AA-JJ AK or KQ here.


as for tstone saying QJo isn't profitable here. i've talked to a few players about utg raising requirements with a lot of hands played at 10/20 and most of them open QJo in mp in most games, and QJo utg in tighter games. i think in any game where tehre are tighter players to act behind you and the looser players are in the blinds, this shoudl be a fairly standard raise, because 3 betting/ cc standards of tags are tight enough that you'll get through to the blinds enough. but at a table where such cc seems to be pretty rampant, this should be a pretty easy muck.

[admiralfluff]

I would expect a TAG to 3-bet AQs and AJs here if they were going to play them with all of the donkers in the pot. I think it owuld be pretty bad not too, but if you have a read of him CCing too much it may change things slightly. I think the most likely thing for him to have here when he *doesn't* have KQ, is a low-mid pp, and I would expect him to call down with these a lot. He will also have KQ fairly often, and should punish you with a turn raise if he does.

[timprov]

There's no legitimate hand I can put you on here, and I don't think that's difficult. I think he'd have to be an actively bad handreader for this to be good.