Fold pocket queens?!

[davelin]

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Because he's getting 15:1 plus huge implied odds to spike a set. He can expect at least 3 BB payoff if he hits. So it's almost EV neutral. Add in a small chance of a free card or backdoor straight, plus meta-game considerations, and it's worth a call.

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Eh, you're still a tiny bit short. For meta-game considerations, if people liberally 3-betted me more on the flop, I could very much live with that.

[MATT111]

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Because he's getting 15:1 plus huge implied odds to spike a set. He can expect at least 3 BB payoff if he hits. So it's almost EV neutral. Add in a small chance of a free card or backdoor straight, plus meta-game considerations, and it's worth a call.

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Assuming he does not have pocket Ks which is of course possible here.

[MrStretchie]

Indeed, this is highly read dependent. Against a maniac I'd call the flop and call down. Against a passive to average player though, hero's line is best. If you get re-raised on the flop you know you're beat and can safely fold either there or on the turn, getting nearly neutral EV to hit your set, as I discussed above. If you just get called, bet the turn, check behind on the river.

[@bsolute_luck]

as other's have already discussed: fold to the 3-bet or call down. you lose 1BB more by calling down.

basis for the decision between the 2: texture of the board and opponent.

[MrStretchie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because he's getting 15:1 plus huge implied odds to spike a set. He can expect at least 3 BB payoff if he hits. So it's almost EV neutral. Add in a small chance of a free card or backdoor straight, plus meta-game considerations, and it's worth a call.

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Eh, you're still a tiny bit short. For meta-game considerations, if people liberally 3-betted me more on the flop, I could very much live with that.

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True, as is the point that he may have pocket kings. I'm just saying you don't save 1SB by folding here. You save more like 0.06SB. And I think you're better off not having people 3-bet bluff you, exactly so you can know where you're at in these sorts of situations and not end up folding when you're ahead. Anyway, I'm not disagreeing with folding - it's very close.

[droolie]

On the flop there are 5BB's in the pot before you act. Call this down and you only need to win 1/3 of the time to show a healthy profit. You will often be behind a pf capper here but losing a pot you should have one and paying to do it is a pretty big mistake. With call/ call/call you only pay 1.5BB more over the raise/ fold line and you give villian zero chance to get you to fold a better hand and get to see his hand at the end. This is my default against unknowns. Give me a solid read and I might raise the flop and fold cheaply to a 3-bet.

[MrStretchie]

*Sigh*.. and close, I mean that you're right. But just barely. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] If there's any significant chance he could check the turn (perhaps trying for a checkraise, or getting scared), then it's worth a call.

[krimson]

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You are in a classic way ahead/ way behind scenario here.

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We are WA/WB however we're behind much more than 1/2 the time. Given a range of capping hands AA,KK,AK,QQ(unlikely) and to a lesser extent AQ or JJ, i'd say we're losing this around 70-80% of the time. I'd rather go for a cheap read on the flop with a raise.

[Aaron W.]

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On the flop there are 5BB's in the pot before you act. Call this down and you only need to win 1/3 of the time to show a healthy profit. You will often be behind a pf capper here but losing a pot you should have one and paying to do it is a pretty big mistake. With call/ call/call you only pay 1.5BB more over the raise/ fold line and you give villian zero chance to get you to fold a better hand and get to see his hand at the end. This is my default against unknowns. Give me a solid read and I might raise the flop and fold cheaply to a 3-bet.

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Nothing wrong with that.

But against a generic UTG preflop capper, I give credit for stronger hands: AA-JJ, AK, AQs, and KQs.

AA (6 ways) = 2 outs
KK (3 ways) = 0 outs
QQ (1 way) = push
JJ (6 ways) = I'm winning
AK (12 ways) = 2 outs
AQs (2 ways) = I'm winning
KQs (3 ways) = 1 out

So there are 24 ways I'm screwed, 8 ways I'm winning, and 1 way tie. According to my count, I'm losing 75% of the time. I'm happy to invest the 1 BB right away to take this pot now, but if he shows continued interest in it, I can let it go.

As I said before, backdoor draws add value to the call/call/call line because you have cards that you pick up on the turn that make you want to see the river. If you've got bricks and he keeps firing, you recognize that it's less likely he's got nothing and that you're paying off a better hand.

[2+2 Junkie]

grunching, I say yes. It appears you are up against AK, or AA, or KK at this point. The hands that you cap with below AA, KK wouldn't show this much aggression when the K comes out. I think it was a good fold.