A routine fold?

[Eeegah]

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that said, i'd have at least called to see the turn based on your reads.

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Yeah, my main concern was that I was caught in the middle of two LAGs here and seeing the turn could likely cost me four bets.

As it turned out, MP2 was on a flush draw and checkraised the river when he caught his third diamond, to which MP3 folded.

[Aaron W.]

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Yeah, but if the table's loose enough, which it is, JTs utg is fine. It's not like he's going to get isolated by a raise from UTG+1 or something.

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No, I still don't want to pay two bets to see a 4-handed flop with JTs OOP. It's not that strong of a hand. Unless it's 6-7 players to a flop for two bets, I think limping this is a losing proposition.

[@bsolute_luck]

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Yeah, but if the table's loose enough, which it is, JTs utg is fine. It's not like he's going to get isolated by a raise from UTG+1 or something.

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No, I still don't want to pay two bets to see a 4-handed flop with JTs OOP. It's not that strong of a hand. Unless it's 6-7 players to a flop for two bets, I think limping this is a losing proposition.

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hmmm...interesting. if i remember, playing suited ten and higher cards is fine even at a tight table. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[Aaron W.]

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Yeah, but if the table's loose enough, which it is, JTs utg is fine. It's not like he's going to get isolated by a raise from UTG+1 or something.

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No, I still don't want to pay two bets to see a 4-handed flop with JTs OOP. It's not that strong of a hand. Unless it's 6-7 players to a flop for two bets, I think limping this is a losing proposition.

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hmmm...interesting. if i remember, playing suited ten and higher cards is fine. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

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For one bet, it's fine. But for two bets, it's not. JTs needs some implied odds to help it along, and implied odds are cut in half when you need to invest twice as much preflop. Even against LAGs who may pay off more than other players, this hand is going to be problematic OOP.

Remember that preflop decisions are not just about the two cards in front of you.

[@bsolute_luck]

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Remember that preflop decisions are not just about the two cards in front of you

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umm...yes i remember this, but thanks for reminding me [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

1. there are more than enough people in this hand to make it fine and not really a big loss or worth discussing.

2. what's wrong with 2 bets? would you play this HU? if you were on the button and 3 people limp and CO raises, would you fold- it is 2 bets to you and you're even coldcalling? what if you were in SB with 2 limps, Button raises you fold- that's seen just like cold calling? that is 2 bets isn't it? what's the difference at this point?

3. regarding the 2 cards in front of you, you have a strong hand multiway. around 43% against 3 other random hands. and against an broadway hands and 2 other randoms, you easily have 25%.

maybe we must agree to disagree, but i've stated my case as best as possible.

[car ramrod]

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1. there are more than enough people in this hand to make it fine and not really a big loss or worth discussing.


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yea, but not when we limped in. And not knowing if this is going to be raised behind us. The read he had was they were raising a lot pf. I would have folded.


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what if you were in BB with 2 limps, Button raises, SB calls, you fold? that is 2 bets isn't it? what's the difference at this point?


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unless I'm missing something, that is only one bet to call.

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3. regarding the 2 cards in front of you, you have a strong hand multiway. around 43% against 3 other random hands. and against an broadway hands and 2 other randoms, you easily have 25%.


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true, I would play this hand in lp, when I'm more sure it won't get raised. Or at least I want to have better position if I am playing it for 2 bets.

[car ramrod]

I would have lead the flop. Your read was that mp2 is tricky and lagging it up lately. Lead, let him raise and face pfr with 2 cold. This way he can fold, or we can get a better idea of his holding.

One of them could just be drawing, mp3 could be raising his overs, and you just folded tp which may have been best.

[Aaron W.]

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1. there are more than enough people in this hand to make it fine and not really a big loss or worth discussing.

2. what's wrong with 2 bets? would you play this HU? if you were on the button and 3 people limp and CO raises, would you fold- it is 2 bets to you and you're even coldcalling? what if you were in BB with 2 limps, Button raises, SB calls, you fold? that is 2 bets isn't it? what's the difference at this point?

3. regarding the 2 cards in front of you, you have a strong hand multiway. around 43% against 3 other random hands. and against an broadway hands and 2 other randoms, you easily have 25%.

maybe we must agree to disagree, but i've stated my case as best as possible.

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Let me go back to the original point and go from there:

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Reads: This table has been one of the most aggressive I've seen at Stars .25/.50. At least as far as preflop is concerned--action seems to slow down postflop, but the table still has maybe three LAGs and a borderline. The first seven hands I saw were raised preflop, but it had quieted down the last orbit or two.

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These are reasons to fold JTs UTG+1.

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Now to respond to your points:

1) I don't think this precise situation is going to be a big problem, but in a LAGgy game with lots of preflop raising, limping in with only moderately strong hands OOP isn't a good thing to do.

2) Two bets is twice as bad as one bet. I'm not advocating a limp-fold, but I'm looking ahead to see that it's probably getting raised behind me, and I'd rather not play this hand for two bets. Coldcalling after 4 players voluntarily enter the pot is much different than open-limping. Would I cold-call that one? It's certainly an option.

3) JTs is a strong hand multiway, but a strong hand multiway against limping hands. Put it up against raising hands, and you've got problems.

Under more passive circumstances, limp away. But here, I think it's a bad idea.

[@bsolute_luck]

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maybe we must agree to disagree, but i've stated my case as best as possible.

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i've changed my mind and this is to ramrod too (i can't believe i'm having this conversation with you guys really): this is straight out of SSH- not even debatable really.

pg 69 on Little Suited Broadways: ""If the pot is unraised, you should limp with these hands from early or middle position. You would like to encourage loose limps behind you. From late position, you can raise no matter how many limpers there are. Because of its flush potiential, your hand plays well in a large pot. To play against a raise however, you must be sure the pot will be multiway"

SSH tight hand chart page 80.

pg 84: "For instance, we recommend cold-calling a raise in a tight game with only AQs, AJs, and KQs (also sometimes with suited connectors when three or more people have already entered the pot)."

pg 86 (and this is really funny):

For instance, if you limp with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (i really should change this to [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]s but oh well [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]), an opponent limps, and then someone raises, always call the raise as long as it is only one more bet".

damn dudes, let's step it up here eh? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[flopwell]

on a table as aggressive pf as this one, I think playing JTs is a big mistake UTG.

that said, I probably would have folded the flop too.