Party 30/60: raised on the turn again

[mike l.]

first off that guy's not tough he's a donk. he may have some natural skill but he's clearly not at all educated about how to play hold em. in short he's "trying to play well". problem is he has to make it up while he goes. it takes exactly one hand like the KTo to verify this.

secondly the TT guy is on crack as well. a Q and a J are the two most likely cards for a typical mid limit preflop cold caller to have. you check and fold the turn and it's not close.

his turn check is a donk check though.

[34TheTruth34]

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His hand was suited, but I actually agree that even 76s in the BB with a tough CO raiser is a difficult hand to play. You're likely getting 5.5:1, so it's not a terrible call, but it's right on the border because of your position with respect to the TAG.


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I hadn't thought about this. I just assumed this was a no-brainer call, especially since this player is probably good enough to try to isolate the loose limper with a trash hand.

But even if we somehow knew that the raiser had his normal quality raising hand, I would think this would be giving up way too much folding here.

The best part is, you very rarely get in expensive trouble post flop with this type of hand [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Nightwish]

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this is interesting. as I was typing my response to you, he played the following hand:

a player open-raised in EMP the following stats:

162/22/15/2.2/44 WSD.

The tough player from the original hand cold called from the CO (?) and I called out of the BB with 86s.

Flop Q-J-4 rainbow

I check, EMP bets, tough player calls, I fold.

Turn 3. EMP checks, tough player bets, EMP calls.

River 4. EMP checks, tough player bets, EMP calls.

Tough player has KTo and EMP takes it with TT.


I must be doing something terribly wrong...

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A few comments here. First, I don't think 86s is playable in that situation for a raise, but whatever. Second, the tough player's preflop call is terrible. If he really wants to play that hand against a slightly LAGgish EMP raiser, he should 3-bet, but this is really an easy fold. Third, do you think the CO would have raised if the EMP guy had bet the turn?

[Nightwish]

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sorry i changed my post and added a lot please check it out.

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Yup, I like your thinking. I was actually thinking this same thing when I was typing up my post, but it was getting too long anyway, so I decided to just focus on the idea of betting and folding to a raise.

[34TheTruth34]

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First, I don't think 86s is playable in that situation for a raise, but whatever

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maybe I over-defend my blinds? I never thought I did because my VPIP is so low, but maybe I do. I just see so much raising with crap preflop in this game that it just seems natural to me to scale down the type of hand I'd defend my BB with. Is that correct?


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Second, the tough player's preflop call is terrible

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yeah, I wonder if it was a misclick? You saw his stats, it doesn't appear that he routinely makes these plays by looking at them. But who knows?

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Third, do you think the CO would have raised if the EMP guy had bet the turn?

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I would guess no. I would think he would raise the flop if he was going to.


This was a very bizarre hand.

[mike l.]

"yeah, I wonder if it was a misclick?"

no. if it were a misclick then it would be some random hand he had not a classic crap cold calling hand like KT.

[Nightwish]

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First, I don't think 86s is playable in that situation for a raise, but whatever

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maybe I over-defend my blinds? I never thought I did because my VPIP is so low, but maybe I do. I just see so much raising with crap preflop in this game that it just seems natural to me to scale down the type of hand I'd defend my BB with. Is that correct?

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That is correct, but there are two things that you'd like to see. First, you'd like the players that have position on you in that hand to be idiots, not TAGs. This is because your hand is pretty weak, and you want to compensate for it with implied odds. That is, you want these people betting and calling incorrectly when you actually do make your straight or flush. Second, I personally would like to see at least one other player in there for a hand like 86s. But many others here will disagree.

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Second, the tough player's preflop call is terrible

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yeah, I wonder if it was a misclick? You saw his stats, it doesn't appear that he routinely makes these plays by looking at them. But who knows?

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I don't think it was a misclick. His VP$IP is 20 and his WTSD is 44. This tells me that he likes calling with marginal hands and then not letting go. I don't think he's really as good as you seem to think he is.

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Third, do you think the CO would have raised if the EMP guy had bet the turn?

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I would guess no. I would think he would raise the flop if he was going to.

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He very well may have. I suspect that this guy was planning to raise either the flop or the turn and is simply mixing it up as to which street he raises (assuming the turn was a blank, of course). But who knows.

[34TheTruth34]

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if it were a misclick then it would be some random hand he had not a classic crap cold calling hand like KT.

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fair enough. while you are here, how bad (if at all) are my preflop calls?

[mike l.]

those preflop calls are correct. you are getting the right price to play those for one more bet. they are pretty close to the edge though, anything much worse and you must muck. suited is important too.

btw a proven obvious better player may come in and correct me on all that. meaning no one who has posted yet in this thread.

[mike l.]

"Second, I personally would like to see at least one other player in there for a hand like 86s."

prudent but perhaps too prudent.