Party 30/60: raised on the turn again
 

Here is an area where I'm having a lot of trouble:

Party 30/60, I am in the BB with 76s. two folds, An extemely loose passive player limps in next (he'd raise with his good hands) everyone folds to the CO who raises. Button and SB fold, I call, LP calls. three players.

Flop Q-Q-6 rainbow. It's checked to the CO who bets, I check-raise, loose player folds, CO calls. Heads up

Turn 4. I bet he raises. My guess is that this player is a solid, aggressive player (1000 hands, 20/10/2/44 WSD). His turn aggression is 2.8.

What's your plan?

getting it heads up with the intention of check-calling down
 

fold he has a Q or a pocket pair he really likes too often to make calling right.

someone earlier in bk's 99 hand was talking about once you get the fish out go ahead and go into check-call mode. sure you risk giving a free card but you dont get put to the test with a raise either. now for bk's hand that did not apply because of the opponent he was against, but in this case i think it's an option worth considering. there should be a name for this play of getting it heads up with the intention of check-calling down against a tougher opponent you dont want to be tested by.

Re: getting it heads up with the intention of check-calling down
 

thanks for responding. You seem to like both folding and check-calling down. Which do you think is better against this particular player?

donk check?
 

"1000 hands, 20/10/2/44 WSD"

he's a pretty tough customer. he usually has it. fold.
but change the stats a little and maybe this check-call idea is a good one?

there's one more thing here though. when you check the turn after getting it heads up and the guy has let's say AK he will oftentimes not bet. youve thrown water on the fire and it now looks like you have a hand you want to get to showdown with. some of these okay tight players (and again i dont know if this guy is better than ok or what) are looking to keep variance down so they gladly take the free card. but they might be smart/brave enough to raise the turn figuring you to be good enough to fold a 6 w/ hands you beat. you see? it seems like a contradiction but i think it makes sense.

this is an extension of when youre in a pot on the river and someone has been betting into you the whole way and some nothing card comes on the river and now your opponent checks. they are oftentimes suddenly checking with the intention of calling because they have a hand they see as okay showdown value but that would hate to get raised. so by doing this on the turn you first explain with the c/r on the flop that you have something and it's vulnerable and yes it's probably the y on a xxy board, and then you confirm that you plan to show it down as cheaply and carefully as possible by surprising them with a donk check on the turn. so now they go into give up mode with their AK and you find the value bet on the river or whatever.

donk check? it's the same idea as the bet but it's just with a check...

Re: Party 30/60: raised on the turn again
 

The reason you fold hands like 76o pre-flop given that action is so you won't have to face these hard decisions later.

But given that's water under the bridge: seeing that his aggression factor on the turn is 2.8, I'm inclined to call down. He most likely knows you have a 6 and I'd suspect that his read on you is that you are likely to fold for a raise. The odds are that you are beat, so folding isn't a bad option. Fact is, you've put yourself in a tough spot with that pre-flop call.

Perhaps the best play may be to call the turn, and hope he will simply check the river w/ AK or some such, thinking that if you call the turn, you'll also call the river. But muck if he bets the river, since he's unlikely to keep bluffing.

Re: getting it heads up with the intention of check-calling down
 

[ QUOTE ]
"1000 hands, 20/10/2/44 WSD"

he's a pretty tough customer. he usually has it. fold.
but change the stats a little and maybe this check-call idea is a good one?

[/ QUOTE ]
In this particular case, I agree with Mike that betting the turn and folding to a raise is likely the right strategy. The BB exposed his hand by check-raising the flop, so one could make an argument that the opponent might attempt to exploit this and raise the turn with AK or something like that. And, in fact, it's almost certainly right for him to do this some small fraction of the time. But I think this move requires the opponent to know the BB pretty well and to know that he's at least capable of folding a 6 here. So the bottom line is that I think a TAG CO will very rarely raise the turn with a worse hand.

Now if you make the CO into a LAG, check-calling might now become the correct play because though it would truly suck to get raised on the turn, the BB cannot fold because he's no longer sure that the opponent has him beat. And the best part is that a LAG CO is now far more likely to bet a worse hand when checked to.

Interesting hand!

Re: getting it heads up with the intention of check-calling down
 

sorry i changed my post and added a lot please check it out.

Re: Party 30/60: raised on the turn again
 

"The reason you fold hands like 76o pre-flop given that action is so you won't have to face these hard decisions later."

great point except in this case hero was sooooted. so what should he do there? still fold?

Re: getting it heads up with the intention of check-calling down
 

this is interesting. as I was typing my response to you, he played the following hand:

a player open-raised in EMP the following stats:

162/22/15/2.2/44 WSD.

The tough player from the original hand cold called from the CO (?) and I called out of the BB with 86s.

Flop Q-J-4 rainbow

I check, EMP bets, tough player calls, I fold.

Turn 3. EMP checks, tough player bets, EMP calls.

River 4. EMP checks, tough player bets, EMP calls.

Tough player has KTo and EMP takes it with TT.


I must be doing something terribly wrong...

Re: Party 30/60: raised on the turn again
 

[ QUOTE ]
The reason you fold hands like 76o pre-flop given that action is so you won't have to face these hard decisions later.


[/ QUOTE ]
His hand was suited, but I actually agree that even 76s in the BB with a tough CO raiser is a difficult hand to play. You're likely getting 5.5:1, so it's not a terrible call, but it's right on the border because of your position with respect to the TAG.

[ QUOTE ]

But given that's water under the bridge: seeing that his aggression factor on the turn is 2.8, I'm inclined to call down. He most likely knows you have a 6 and I'd suspect that his read on you is that you are likely to fold for a raise.


[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with you that the CO knows that the BB has a 6, but why do you think he's so sure that the BB will fold to a raise? It seems to me that the BB's image at the table is a pretty important factor here.