5/10 Live hand. Donkey call? - Page 2

captZEEbo1 · #11 06-06-2005, 11:57 AM

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in this hand i was actually UTG and also had AJ.

BUT, i was quite sure that the way the hand played out that I could get the mid position player to fold, knowing that he couldnt have had a better hand.(he would have definately raised with AQ AK 99 and even 22) Through the night he had been overplaying AT and other weak aces. A9 was a slight concern, but I didnt think he would be firing so hard with a hand like that.

When i checkraised all in on the turn, he thought for a long time, and finally called, much to everyone at the tables surprise, espically mine.

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Why did you play your hand like this? Did you want a call from a worse ace?

Jason Strasser · #12 06-06-2005, 01:39 PM

Contrary to what some people are saying, a turn bet isnt a bad idea here. If you ALWAYS check in this spot you will have to get used to people betting into you on the river with combinations of good hands and air. It's a bad pattern to constantly keep the small with mediocre hands so you can keep Shania happy when you have a big hand.

Also betting the turn simplifies things.... Your opp raises you fold. Your opponent calls you can check behind the river.

-Jason

BobboFitos · #13 06-06-2005, 03:19 PM

Good post, but I think a turn pot bet on this board is always bad.

A smaller bet accomplishes so much more

vicpanic · #14 06-06-2005, 05:32 PM

The mid position player had been particularly trying to run over me and the other younger players at the table. And had had made some odd calls in similar situations with subpar hands. (his A8 vs AK etc.)

When he bet the $200 on the turn, I was sure that i had the best hand, and wasnt opposed to either picking up the pot right there, or get called by ATo or worse.

He did call with his AJ, and we chopped.

Who knows, maybe it wasnt a donkey call, maybe it was a donkey bet by me.

Jason Strasser · #15 06-06-2005, 06:21 PM

Bobbo,

Maybe for you. The size of your bet has so much to do with your style of play. I think a blanket statement like

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I think a turn pot bet on this board is always bad.

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Is not quite right. I've had times where I've just been extremely aggressive and I'd be crazy not to bet pot here. This hand is much different, but check it out:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (10 handed) converter

MP2 ($3872)
MP3 ($1890)
Hero ($6090.5)
Button ($3093)
SB ($2020)
BB ($1000)
UTG ($1819.56)
UTG+1 ($1500)
UTG+2 ($1907)
MP1 ($2006)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $10.
5 folds, Hero raises to $60, 1 fold, SB calls $50, 1 fold.

Flop: ($140) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $90, SB calls $90.

Turn: ($320) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($320) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $300, SB calls $300.

Final Pot: $920

I think a pot sized bet is definitely not standard here, but I was playing aggressively and had my opponent thinking I could bluff. MHIG here.

Absolute statements like the ones you made really dont have a place in big bet nl holdem in my view.

captZEEbo1 · #16 06-06-2005, 07:03 PM

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Also betting the turn simplifies things.... Your opp raises you fold. Your opponent calls you can check behind the river.

-Jason

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Why are we checking behind river if we don't get raised on turn? How many sets or two pair wait till river to do their check-raisng? Since we assumed he didn't have AQ or AK by river, couldn't we also assume that he must have a weaker ace that probably pays off another bet on the river?

augie00 · #17 06-06-2005, 07:28 PM

You should have checked behind on the turn and called a river bet. It is not often that a hand that AJ beats calls a raise on the flop. Maybe QT or something. But QT wouldn't move in on the turn.

BobboFitos · #18 06-06-2005, 09:44 PM

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Absolute statements like the ones you made really dont have a place in big bet nl holdem in my view.

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Ok, you're right about that, absolutes aren't good.

Your hand is a little different because you pot it on the river, and could sell to your opponent that you were bluffing.

Here, a pot bet IMO is bad is because what are you trying to protect/ IF you have the best hand a much smaller bet still forces a villan to make an improper call, and allows them to make that mistake with a greater frequency. Plus, being moved off (by a bluff) is less expensive.

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he size of your bet has so much to do with your style of play.

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That is very true, as well.

BTW, what did villain call with? something like 99?

Jason Strasser · #19 06-06-2005, 10:14 PM

Checking behind on the river is optional. I was just arguing for betting the turn so that you control the hand and dont have to face (often) a difficult river decision. Betting the river is a feel thing usually.

Also...

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Since we assumed he didn't have AQ or AK by river, couldn't we also assume that he must have a weaker ace that probably pays off another bet on the river?

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I'm not really sold on this assumption. At least, in deep stacked NL I see these hands all the time being limped in.

-Jason

Jason Strasser · #20 06-06-2005, 10:16 PM

Bobos,

I understand your point. The thing is, at least in my experience, the way I or my opponents determine believability is not always directly proportional to bet size. In fact, sometimes it can be an inverse relationship. So saying your opponents will call bigger bets with more frequency is not always true, at least in my world.

-Jason

He had J9.