88, possibly being isolated, but he keeps jamming -- IHC - Page 2

Frequitude · #11 06-02-2005, 02:20 PM

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If you just sat at the table, why raise from MP with 88? I would limp.

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I was open raising...surely this is standard.

DMBFan23 · #12 06-02-2005, 02:24 PM

I'm chucking it to SB's turn bet. however if he checks, I'm betting it myself. if SB were heads up with the PFR, then I would give his bet less weight - he could be donkbetting into AK with some random pair. but when he bets into the both of you, he is figuring to get called EDIT: especially if he is passive.

IMO after all that preflop action, and SB leading the turn on that blank, you have two outs like 95% of the time, and very occasionally zero outs.

Frequitude · #13 06-02-2005, 02:34 PM

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I think the turn raise itself is somewhat questionable. If SB's bluffing he's picking an odd spot to do so.

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...and here I am thinking the turn raise was the best part of the hand (next to the PF raise). I see SB's move from fishy players often enough at the tables. Does anyone else? Yes, he could have a 3, but I think it's also quite possble that he does not. I also thought it was very likely that MP3 had AK, AJ, AT often enough to justify facing him with 2BB cold.

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I think after MP3 3-bets the turn putting in any more money is definitely spewing.

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It seems like most of the posters want me to fold to the 3-bet. I guess after that I saw the pot and entered call down mode. That's why I wanted to post this, to see if calling down was spewing. I had thought that MP3 could have missed his overs sometimes, and he really didn't want to lose the pot! [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

...hmmm, my reasoning seems based on a lot of "I thought it was possible that..."

Frequitude · #14 06-02-2005, 02:39 PM

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but when he bets into the both of you, he is figuring to get called EDIT: especially if he is passive.

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That was another reason for the raise...to see how he would react. Call, and I've probably still got him, 3bet and I've gotta give him credit. That was my thinking at the time, and re-reading those words now brings the word "spew" back to mind.

...not to mention our little friend MP3

chief444 · #15 06-02-2005, 02:41 PM

Yeah...I would dump it to the turn bet. The thing is...when you combine the chances of having both opponents beat it really cuts down you're odds. Say you have MP beat 50% of the time and SB beat 25% then you're only good 1/8 times here. And those numbers may be on the high side.

I definitely think calling down is wishful thinking. It's pretty clear at that point you have the 3rd best hand.

Frequitude · #16 06-02-2005, 02:43 PM

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...you can't overcall in this spot.

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With my eyes glued to the pot, I'm kind of ashamed to say that I never considered the fact that I was overcalling.

Frequitude · #17 06-02-2005, 02:57 PM

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Yeah...I would dump it to the turn bet. The thing is...when you combine the chances of having both opponents beat it really cuts down you're odds. Say you have MP beat 50% of the time and SB beat 25% then you're only good 1/8 times here. And those numbers may be on the high side.

I definitely think calling down is wishful thinking. It's pretty clear at that point you have the 3rd best hand.

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I definitely can't disagree what anything you said, but I was getting 18:1 on my call here. Am I really not good 5% of the time on this board???

About 3 weeks ago at the B&M, I folded the best hand on the river for a single bet in a 20BB pot. I missed my flush but had third pair...I folded to a guy who had been firing away on all streets. Turns out he had AK on a (similar) Q high board. That pot STILL bugs me.

That was HU, mind you, but it was resting heavily on my mind on the river here. I mean, 18:1!?!

chief444 · #18 06-02-2005, 03:11 PM

The thing is though...there are only 7.5 BB's in the pot on the turn when bet into. So you should be getting into the habit of thinking beyond just the turn raise. What you really did here was invest 4 BB's for a chance to win 18.5 when I doubt if you are good 5% of the time. At the very least you need to condsider calling both a turn and river bet so you're getting 9:1 or so on the calldown. The river call looked at in isolation may not be as bad as either turn decision. But it's really the overall line taken for the turn/river combined that I think is real bad.

crunchy1 · #19 06-02-2005, 03:20 PM

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That was HU, mind you

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And that's a HUGE difference compared to this hand. That hand was an aggressive player betting his hand into a passive player (I assume you were calling behing with your flush draw). This hand has a passive player betting into two other aggressors. See the difference?

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That pot STILL bugs me.

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There are things that need to be addressed if pots from 3 weeks ago are still bugging you - and leading you to make incorrect decisions at the table.

Frequitude · #20 06-02-2005, 03:22 PM

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The thing is though...there are only 7.5 BB's in the pot on the turn when bet into. So you should be getting into the habit of thinking beyond just the turn raise. What you really did here was invest 4 BB's for a chance to win 18.5 when I doubt if you are good 5% of the time. At the very least you need to condsider calling both a turn and river bet so you're getting 9:1 or so on the calldown. The river call looked at in isolation may not be as bad as either turn decision. But it's really the overall line taken for the turn/river combined that I think is real bad.

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Two really good points. Thank you. I never thought of it from an effective odds standpoint.