"Just call down like a donkey" Thanks SSHE (No Content) - Page 2

2+2 wannabe · #11 05-25-2005, 01:48 AM

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fold pf u have frickin' 44

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this is a pretty easy call preflop with 3 people in and the blinds (UTG has to call one more but will undoubtedly do that)

TheWorstPlayer · #12 05-25-2005, 02:00 AM

No way am I ever folding a flush on the river getting 15:1 facing two opponents who have checked and a late position bettor. That is for sure.

irishpint · #13 05-25-2005, 02:09 AM

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fold pf u have frickin' 44

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this is a pretty easy call preflop with 3 people in and the blinds (UTG has to call one more but will undoubtedly do that)

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there is one caller, one raiser, a coldcaller and then our 'hero'. i dont like this because you dont know what is going to happen after. everyone could call. no one could call. someone could 3bet. in late position with 3 or 4 in i'll call. we're middle with a raiser and one caller. in my opinion, abort! 77 or 88 ill call. 99 and up ill 3bet. I dunno about 44...maybe he knew something about the table/players that i didnt but i'm out of this.

milesdyson · #14 05-25-2005, 02:09 AM

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No way am I ever folding a flush on the river getting 15:1 facing two opponents who have checked and a late position bettor. That is for sure.

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I like the emphasis on "a flush." I'd call if someone watching me play would give me an extra 20 BB if I called and won.

I think a lot of people will agree with your thought, but I don't.

edit: If I knew MP2 was an idiot bluffer, I'd rather raise than call.

kapw7 · #15 05-25-2005, 03:43 AM

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river: I don't understand the call. If you think you're beating MP1 more than 7% of the time, you have to raise to force a higher flush to fold.

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The call is fine with 15:1 pot odds. Raising doesn't make sense. You can get re-raised by any of the 2 players. You won't make weak flushes to fold a lot of times. You'll make weaker hands to fold that otherwise would have called for 1 bet. In other words raising maximises your loses but doesn't increase your winnings.

cmwck · #16 05-25-2005, 03:59 AM

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river: I don't understand the call. If you think you're beating MP1 more than 7% of the time, you have to raise to force a higher flush to fold.

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The call is fine with 15:1 pot odds. Raising doesn't make sense. You can get re-raised by any of the 2 players. You won't make weak flushes to fold a lot of times. You'll make weaker hands to fold that otherwise would have called for 1 bet. In other words raising maximises your loses but doesn't increase your winnings.

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If you were heads up you might call, but you still have two people yet to act behind you. You have to look at your chances of winning after you call and one or both players behind you overcalls. Basically, if anyone overcalls, the chances that you are ahead go down. If both players overcalled behind you, that chance goes way, way down.

If MP2 was bluffing a lot in this spot, a raise could win you the whole pot. And if someone re-raises you (making it a check, 3-bet) you have an easy fold.

kapw7 · #17 05-25-2005, 07:59 AM

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river: I don't understand the call. If you think you're beating MP1 more than 7% of the time, you have to raise to force a higher flush to fold.

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The call is fine with 15:1 pot odds. Raising doesn't make sense. You can get re-raised by any of the 2 players. You won't make weak flushes to fold a lot of times. You'll make weaker hands to fold that otherwise would have called for 1 bet. In other words raising maximises your loses but doesn't increase your winnings.

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If you were heads up you might call, but you still have two people yet to act behind you. You have to look at your chances of winning after you call and one or both players behind you overcalls. Basically, if anyone overcalls, the chances that you are ahead go down. If both players overcalled behind you, that chance goes way, way down.

If MP2 was bluffing a lot in this spot, a raise could win you the whole pot. And if someone re-raises you (making it a check, 3-bet) you have an easy fold.

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I don' agree. You call this by investing 1 BB b/c the pot gives you 15:1 odds at least so you need to win 6.25% of times. And this can be less if the other players call with minor hands like triple 3s, a straight, AA/KK (SB looks like he has something like that).
If you raise you invest 2 BBs to win 15BB b/c anyone who calls you will usually have you beat. You also miss the bets from the hands that you beat (as above). And there are not a lot of diamond cards that will fold even for 2 bets. So now you need to win the pot 12.5% of times. I prefer the first number.

And actually if HU with MP2 (having him read as a bluffer) I would raise.

DMBFan23 · #18 05-25-2005, 08:42 AM

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Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Nak is CO with 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Nak calls, 1 fold, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Nak calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls, Nak calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls, Nak calls.

River: (14 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, Nak calls, SB folds, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB

About ten hands later, there's a 4 with a 4-flush on board. SB starts in on me:

SB: "You gonna call down with 44 again nak?"
Nak: "Always"
SB: "Not afraid of the four-flush?"
Nak: "Never"
SB: "Just call down like a donkey"

Heh, I wasn't even in the hand. I love this game.

Nak

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this hand is solid gold on every street except I would probably fold the river even at 14-1. even if you won here, I don't think you win 1 time in 15 versus 3 other players, unless they are all chimpanzees, and probably not even then.

DMBFan23 · #19 05-25-2005, 08:44 AM

holy crap. I am astonished anyone would fold this pf. you'd need to knock me unconscious to get those 4s out of my hand before I see a flop here

Nak · #20 05-25-2005, 09:40 AM

Wow, I didn't expect to get this much conversation. Good discussion.

Some of you think I should fold the river (including milesdyson, whom I routinely see giving very good advice). But I think I need to be in on this river (we'll leave the interesting debate on whether to raise aside for the moment).

Let's say that anyone with a diamond on the flop will call to the river. There are four players on the river. The chance that a diamond was dealt in those eight cards is 82.1%. So, my flush is good 17.9% of the time, more than enough to call getting 15:1. Even if you factor in the smalll likely-hood of a full house, this is enough to call.

Nak

Edit: Thanks to davelin for pointing out a careless error. I need to figure the chance in six cards. This makes my flush good 28.5% of the time. See the discussion that follows.

Edit: Not to mention the possibility that diamonds have already been folded, which improves that 17.9% winrate.