99...now what? - Page 2

EverettKings · #11 04-19-2005, 02:44 PM

You have two options as I see it. Fold the flop, and push the flop. I vote fold.

Calling the flop intending to bluff the turn is a bad idea. The pot will be around 500 and he will certainly lead some of his 450 stack into you. There is no way you can expect to get him off of any hand on the turn. If you think he is full of it (and you'd need some kind of a read to do this), the time to take the pot from him is on the flop.

But I still don't like pushing. He could have a lot of hands on the flop, but it doesn't look like he's going away and I highly doubt that he leads like that into 3 players without at least the T. JTs, AT, JJ, AA, a set, lots of crap plays like that. The only hand that you're beating that might make that play is two big hearts, but even then you're only about even money with him and he isn't folding.

In short, he's not folding and you're probably beat. And if not, hes likely drawing very live. Save your chips for another day.

-Kings

prepotency · #12 04-19-2005, 02:45 PM

I'm not even sure if I'm playing this to a PF raise - I understand calling here because you called the BB before the raise - so you're in the pot now: one overcard flops, you fold. You really just want to hit your set or fold anyways, it's too early to be playing this aggressive with a marginal pair IMO.

EverettKings · #13 04-19-2005, 02:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Look at the min raise from the BB pre-flop. What does that tell you? AK? No. JJ or QQ? No. AA or KK? Yep.

[/ QUOTE ]

You obviously haven't played enough sit n gos. I see this play with a whole range of crap. Yes, sometimes it's AA or KK, but often its a drawing hand that wants to build a pot or some idiot with AK or TT. You can't be giving him credit for those just because he min raised.

His bet on the flop says that he wants protection. More likely to be AT or JJ than AA or KK. Nonetheless, hero should get out.

-Kings

TheUsher · #14 04-19-2005, 02:52 PM

In response to:

Poster: Unarmed
Subject: Re: 99...now what?

Quote:

** Dealing Turn ** [ 3d ]
SwiftSteal bets [275].
Gregernaut raises [550].
SwiftSteal calls [275].

I'm lost... you have 88 right?

------

Eh? I wasn't the one in the hand and yes SwiftSteal had 88. Forget that the other dude had KK as in other cases, he could have many other hands that 88 was in the lead. My whole point was to show the hand to illustrate the intentions for the hand that SwiftSteal had, which were similar to OP's.

curtains · #15 04-19-2005, 02:54 PM

My favorite is when people get upset about the way their opponent played a hand thus completely discounting the fact that they might have certain hands because there is no way they would play them like "this".

After that, they throw away all their money because of this read, and yet still insist that the opponent is the one who's an idiot.

curtains · #16 04-19-2005, 03:00 PM

Actually I have a funny story about this from the WSOP last year, one of the 1k NL buyins. There was this guy who I believe came in 3rd in a wpt event (although I wasn't sure if it was him, but if it was he played terribly).

Anyway blinds were like 100-200, and someone went allin utg for 900. So this very aggressive player with a lot of chips in middle position, thinks for about 30 seconds to a minute and finally just calls. The BB decides to call also. The flop comes QJ9!!!! The BB makes a small bet of like 600 or so and he aggressive player who called for 900 preflop now puts the other player allin for about 2500-3000. The BB calls almost instantly. What were the hands??
MP has TT
BB has 77!!!!

BB now goes NUTS, upset that the MP player THOUGHT preflop, saying there is no way he should have TT otherwise why the hell did he have to even think preflop. Seriously the guy was mad at him for thinking for 45 seconds preflop because it ruined his genius read and insisting how stupid he was for not calling immediately.

(Also I can think of maybe 1-2 other hands that can beat 77 here, where the player may have had to think preflop)

TheUsher · #17 04-19-2005, 03:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]

My favorite is when people get upset about the way their opponent played a hand thus completely discounting the fact that they might have certain hands because there is no way they would play them like "this".

After that, they throw away all their money because of this read, and yet still insist that the opponent is the one who's an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah that's always the best. Makes me want to get into that whole next level manipulating the time to mess with people's heads and their reads. This must be the key to winning at the higher levels. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

BTW, I have a special fondness for your nick cuz of the fact you joined on 5/4/03 (my anniversary with girlfriend). Not trying to be gay or anything but it's easier for me to remember it when I see it every other thread. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Misfire · #18 04-19-2005, 03:07 PM

I'm still a little lost with your example.

[ QUOTE ]
If you were thinking of raising here, you should have done it on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop:
BB bets t150
Hero calls t150.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
** Dealing Flop **
Gregernaut bets [150].
SwiftSteal calls [150].

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't question that SwiftSteal is a good player, but other than villan being the raiser on the turn (and the position difference) I don't see the real contrast between this line and OP's. Not being critical, just trying to understand. I still see this from the "no set, no bet" perspective, so I would have folded the flop.

TheUsher · #19 04-19-2005, 03:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]

(Also I can think of maybe 1-2 other hands that can beat 77 here, where the player may have had to think preflop)

[/ QUOTE ]

BB was an idiot on that hand and was probably hoping MP had AT or something. Wayyyy too many hands beat 77 there for me to even call, much less insta-call there. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

BTW, your "SB has TT BB has 77!!!! " part confused me a bit since SB=MP right?

infinite_loop · #20 04-19-2005, 03:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, sometimes it's AA or KK, but often its a drawing hand that wants to build a pot or some idiot with AK or TT. You can't be giving him credit for those just because he min raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. I'm saying this after knowing his pre-flop and flop bet. I could see this being a draw a very small amount of time. Obviously this is a push or fold scenario, so I don't see how you would ever go this direction.