Why A-K sucks - Page 2

Leroy Soesman · #11 03-09-2005, 06:36 AM

Contrary to what most believe, I don't find your flop check behind that bad.

The BB is shortstacked, you hit your hand, the pot is 4 and he has 7 behind, you want all that money in there because you have every reason to believe you're way ahead here.

Of course there are some hands that you are behind off, but with the pot standing at 4 and his stack at 7 you're just going to have to pay him off.

If you think he might have hit that flop, or will try to bluff the turn if you check, go ahead and check behind! There are no real draws out there, and it's heads up. He will only outdraw you if he hits a 5 outer.

gulebjorn · #12 03-09-2005, 09:27 AM

Maybe this will clarify (ToP p.89): "When in doubt, make sure you don't make a mistake that costs you the pot. Checking and giving an opponent with a worse hand a free card may cost you the pot when he outdraws you. Thus, the only time to give free cards with the probable best hand is when your hand is so strong it is in little danger of being outdrawn and your deception sets up the likelihood of larger profits in future bets in comparison to what is currently in the pot."

TPTK definitely is not a hand that it is so strong it will not get outdrawn. So it's almost always a big mistake not to bet the flop when you hit TPTK. OK, the turn card didn't help villain this time, but it is still a horrible play, because you are giving him infinite odds by not betting the pot.

Look at it this way: if he has a made hand on the flop, he will call your bet. You now know you have to be careful, because he might have you beat. If he doesn't have a made hand and he calls, he is getting incorrect odds to do so, so in the long run, you win. If he folds, the (raised) pot is yours, this is what you want.

GL

Edit: i don't think it matters if all he can hit is a 5-outer, or even a 2-outer. As long as you check, you're not making him pay anything at all to try to hit one of his five outs, so in the long run he will gain and you will lose.

Leroy Soesman · #13 03-09-2005, 12:22 PM

Let me first of all say that you are right, of course if you check through your opponent will in theory make money.

However, the situation is not that simple. It depends on your opponents tendencies. The major question being: will he bluff the turn if you check behind?

Remember in this situation you are either crushed (left with 5, 3 or less outs) or you have your opponent crushed (left with 6 r 5 outs). If he is very likely to run a bluf on that turn, I will definately check behind a good number of times.

1 in 9 of those times I will probably lose $7, the other 8 times I will win at least that ammount after I go in for the kill.

If he's not very likely to bluf the turn I see no reason to check behind. I'd just bet it right there, and win $4 a good majority of the time.

LuvDemNutz · #14 03-09-2005, 12:28 PM

You suck for not betting flop.

AK rules.

Unarmed · #15 03-09-2005, 12:36 PM

What are you trying to represent by raising in EP and checking a king high flop against 1 opponent who checks to you? Of the hands you are trying to represent, how many of them would you actually check in this case?

jtr · #16 03-09-2005, 01:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What are you trying to represent by raising in EP and checking a king high flop against 1 opponent who checks to you? Of the hands you are trying to represent, how many of them would you actually check in this case?

[/ QUOTE ]

Really well said.

To the OP: AKo is a strong hand, it's just that you played it badly. Given how short-stacked your opponent is, I don't think the flop check behind is completely awful (just mildly awful), but I sure hope you reasoned this out rather than thinking "Woohoo! I have top pair; I'll slowplay the sucker!".

On the turn your plan (if there was one) has worked and you should now push.

teamdonkey · #17 03-09-2005, 01:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
One thing no one has mentioned is that by checking the flop, you make your opponent believe the ten might be good. THAT IS WHY HE STAYED IN THE HAND.

[/ QUOTE ]

isn't that a good thing?

DoomSlice · #18 03-09-2005, 01:44 PM

Yes, people around these parts seem to want to protect their hands way too much, where the goal should be to extract the most out of the opponent.

Wetdog · #19 03-09-2005, 02:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, people around these parts seem to want to protect their hands way too much, where the goal should be to extract the most out of the opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it was in ToP where Sklansky says the goal is to win money, not necessarily pots.

AncientPC · #20 03-09-2005, 02:51 PM

I was going to call you an idiot, but I'll refrain from that.

Taking it down on the flop on the fine, and is what most people here would do.

However if you check the flop to extract more money from later betting rounds, than you do not have a right to whine when you are sucked out on.

You're pretty lucky he didn't pop you back again on the river because he's an idiot.