Blocking Bets- post flop play

[Travis]

I don't think this blocking bet works in the sense that it gets you a cheap show down against hands that beat you. I think a set or two pair would reraise you on either the turn or the river. I'd probably fold to a reraise absent a read on the guy. So that's a plus to the bet, it lets you get away from hands where you are behind but keeps you from getting into a situtation where the guy makes a bet so large with his weaker king or even a bluff where you feel uncomfortable calling.

The only better hand that I think this bet gets you a cheap showdown with is AK. If for somereason he limped with it, he might just call you down fearing you hit two pair with the 7 out of the SB. But I think most people bet more with AK on this flop.

Personally, if it wasn't for the second flop caller and I knew the guy was aggressive I might just let him keep betting at it. His bet size indicates weakness to me. I would suspect you to be ahead the majority of the time on this sort of flop and personally I think you'd win more when you are ahead be letting him continue to bet at it. As it happened he had KT and stayed with you but what if he'd had QJ or QT? I think you loose him there with your bet. Having said that, the presence of that second caller on the flop probably favors your line.

Not sure if this is helpful to you or not.

[Scuba Chuck]

I would have made this mistake - not recognizing that you have TP2K (which is virtually TPTK in this scenario).

Knowing that going forward, I think the right line here is to open bet on the flop. 1/2 pot. Or, to check-raise on the flop. I don't want to see any more cards. I think a check-raise on the flop is your best line here.

The fact that you have thought through that you intend to call, and then advance a blocking bet on the turn, indicates that you're committed to putting more chips in the pot, I would do as much as possible early to find out more info.

But you're smarter than me, so what do I know.

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the right line here is to open bet on the flop. 1/2 pot. Or, to check-raise on the flop. I don't want to see any more cards. I think a check-raise on the flop is your best line here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have 4 left to act after me if I CR, and I have no information on the first two as they have not yet responded to the 60 chip flop bet. With this lack of informaiton I think CR into a field this big is a bit wreckless. The information gained by calling and watching the next two players fold was critical to the play on the turn.

If you CR, are you pushing here? What is your plan for the hand if you CR?

[citanul]

I think that Scuba is more advocating betting out your quite strong hand, more than checkraising advocacy.

citanul

[citanul]

While I don't necessarilly disagree with the fact that in this particular hand, you might not be able to call a meaningful bet on the turn if you check, or on the river if you check, this is a dangerous road to start to go down if you lose your way. Never lose sight of something, which I will attempt to summarize for you:

From many sources: Your opponents are for the most part donkeys. Thus, they will play horrible hands the same as you would expect them to play many good hands. Often your opponent's range of hands far exceeds the range of hands you originally might put him on. Due to this, many players miss value bets, or extra value in their value bets, from playing too timidly. Clearly, you have to pick and choose your opponents to go for large value bets with marginal-ish hands, but you should not miss out on too many of these, they are where your chips come from many times in post flop play.

There are many, many players that I would have a hard time laying down any top pair hand against, at any stage of the tournament.

Second point related, but not very closely, to this post:

In similar situations with similar goofy donkey aggressive opponents, you'll often find yourself heads up on the river with a truly marginal hand (often more marginal than top pair). Again, you suspect he might have you beat, but he will fold if he has garbage and you bet. It's often very correct to check and let him bet whatever it is he wants to bet, take a moment to evaluate his bet, and call often. Since he will bluff some of the time, but would have only called your bet if he honestly thought he had you beat, if you call the same sized bet as you would have thrown out every time, you profit. Also, sometimes they'll check the best hand behind!

Eh, this got a little silly and long, so long my internet connection had time to drop.

citanul

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe my terminology is wrong. I'm looking for a cheap showdown here. On the turn I expect that if I check I will be facing a bet size that I can not call. I'm trying to "block" a meaningful bet from villian and control the pot on the turn and river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your terminology is fine. The villian made a weak bet of 60 on the flop, so I doubt he's going go wild and bet 300 on the turn.

Therefore, I felt the blocking bet was unnecessary. I suspect that he is looking for cheap showdown too.

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that Scuba is more advocating betting out your quite strong hand, more than checkraising advocacy.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

I like betting out better than CR, but with the large field and early position, I'm hesitant to bet out. I like the information gained from checking and acting after betting. I can see the merits of betting out and gathering information/value in this manner though- what would your bet be on the flop and what is your line from there out? If the field was smaller, betting out is more attractive IMO.

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
I think your terminology is fine. The villian made a weak bet of 60 on the flop, so I doubt he's going go wild and bet 300 on the turn.

Therefore, I felt the blocking bet was unnecessary. I suspect that he is looking for cheap showdown too.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why this hand is interesting IMO. When I played this hand I was contemplating one of two lines- either check/call/repeat or check/call/block/block. With either of these lines I would fold to a large bet or reraise. I'm not sure either is right or wrong. I like both of these lines better than betting out or CR on the flop, but I can see arguments for these as well.

[stupidsucker]

There is no reason to cripple yourself or go out on this hand. That being said, I think anything works so long as you keep that in mind. betting out into that flop is a bad idea imo. Big field, a flush draw too.

I think Neg EV played it near perfect, but we can all argue it tooth and nail how we think it may have been better. IMO its really not even that important..

In a sng you want to accumulate chips, but survival is your friend. The hand was played just like that. There are other variations, but hey, does it really matter that much in this situation?

[citanul]

I'd bet the flop, probably right around 100 chips. You'd likely only get the guy with KT calling it looks like, and I'd probably bet the turn, about 1/2 the pot again, maybe more. It's a bit opponent dependent. IE, how much of a donkey he is.

If I had decided to check, and then my opps had acted in the way yours did, I'd have checkraised. My checkraise amount would probably be something close to a call of the bet + 1/2 the pot post calling. Not sure, not looking at the original post right now at the stack sizes and pot size, but it's seeming about right.

citanul

Just wondering: what information did you think that you got by your flop action? At minimum, I'd have thought you got a strong impression you had the best hand. Thus, I'm confused about the rest of the hand as it played out. If you had raised the flop, you would have known almost instantly where you were at with mild certainty. Same story with betting out.