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#12
03-01-2005, 06:35 AM
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Re: KK in SB - UGLY flop
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] To tell you the truth, I almost just folded instead of even checking. [/ QUOTE ] Don't do that. [/ QUOTE ] I was mostly joking. I should have attached a sarcasm tag. [/ QUOTE ] Sorry it's a bit early in the morning here for my sarcasm detector to be fully operational [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] 
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#13
03-01-2005, 06:35 AM
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Re: KK in SB - UGLY flop
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I would've bet the flop, but since you didn't I would fold with it 3-bet back to me. I'm questioning your read of "loose passive" with all this action, but even assuming that it's loose aggressive, one of these guys certainly has an A. Even if they don't, a single club kills our hand. [/ QUOTE ] Why bet the flop then? Hero's set draw needs to be cut to one out here as the K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] puts four to a flush on board and someone clearly has at least one club here, as well as someone else (at least one of them) with an Ace. [/ QUOTE ] (I'm thinking I'm wrong but I'd like to argue the other side): Because of hero's read that the table is passive. I'd feel stupid if I checked and all these passive types checked it around, and a 4th club came on the turn. There are 10SB in the pot.
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#14
03-01-2005, 06:37 AM
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Re: KK in SB - UGLY flop
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I would've bet the flop, but since you didn't I would fold with it 3-bet back to me. I'm questioning your read of "loose passive" with all this action, but even assuming that it's loose aggressive, one of these guys certainly has an A. Even if they don't, a single club kills our hand. [/ QUOTE ] Why bet the flop then? Hero's set draw needs to be cut to one out here as the K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] puts four to a flush on board and someone clearly has at least one club here, as well as someone else (at least one of them) with an Ace. [/ QUOTE ] (I'm thinking I'm wrong but I'd like to argue the other side): Because of hero's read that the table is passive. I'd feel stupid if I checked and all these passive types checked it around, and a 4th club came on the turn. There are 10SB in the pot. [/ QUOTE ] On a loose table, do you think that anybody with a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] would have folded for a single bet in a big pot?
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#15
03-01-2005, 06:39 AM
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Re: KK in SB - UGLY flop
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Out of curiousity, why would betting be better than checking? I mean, as much as being aggressive is compared to godliness around here, I felt that this was one situation where there was absolutely no place for it. To tell you the truth, I almost just folded instead of even checking. [/ QUOTE ] My reasoning is there are 10SB in the pot. If you check, you pretty much give up any claim at all to that pot. If you bet and noone happens to have an A or a high club, you might very well get it down to heads up--and the club only comes in 1/3 of the time. If you bet and get raised or 3-bet, it's an easy fold against LPPs. Loose-passive players don't raise flush draws (in general).
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#16
03-01-2005, 06:41 AM
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Re: KK in SB - UGLY flop
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I would've bet the flop, but since you didn't I would fold with it 3-bet back to me. I'm questioning your read of "loose passive" with all this action, but even assuming that it's loose aggressive, one of these guys certainly has an A. Even if they don't, a single club kills our hand. [/ QUOTE ] Why bet the flop then? Hero's set draw needs to be cut to one out here as the K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] puts four to a flush on board and someone clearly has at least one club here, as well as someone else (at least one of them) with an Ace. [/ QUOTE ] (I'm thinking I'm wrong but I'd like to argue the other side): Because of hero's read that the table is passive. I'd feel stupid if I checked and all these passive types checked it around, and a 4th club came on the turn. There are 10SB in the pot. [/ QUOTE ] On a loose table, do you think that anybody with a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] would have folded for a single bet in a big pot? [/ QUOTE ] It doesn't matter. Any A is beating us anyway. The problem I have with what you said is that it sounds to me like "they're going to call anyway so I'll just check" when there is (a very) small chance we're ahead. Anyone with a largish ace, a largish club, or a made flush will raise and we have an easy fold.
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#18
03-01-2005, 06:43 AM
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Re: KK in SB - UGLY flop
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good hand. The pot is just too multiway, and you are out of position for the hand. Also, you have 1 real out as K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] makes a flush (though I'll give you a redraw of it hits the turn)I think that there is no place for aggression here. Where I get a bit more confused is, what happens if we check it, and it comes back for 1 SB? [/ QUOTE ] In all honesty, I don't think my hand is worth squat. I have almost 0 equity in this pot. I'm not quite sure what I'd do if it came back to me for one small bet. This is a good question. I'd probably say that I fold anyway. I am literally drawing to 1 out here, assuming no one has a made flush on the flop (a safe assumption 99.2% of the time). Hands like this make me laugh.
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#19
03-01-2005, 06:44 AM
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Re: KK in SB - UGLY flop
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Out of curiousity, why would betting be better than checking? I mean, as much as being aggressive is compared to godliness around here, I felt that this was one situation where there was absolutely no place for it. To tell you the truth, I almost just folded instead of even checking. [/ QUOTE ] My reasoning is there are 10SB in the pot. If you check, you pretty much give up any claim at all to that pot. If you bet and noone happens to have an A or a high club, you might very well get it down to heads up--and the club only comes in 1/3 of the time. If you bet and get raised or 3-bet, it's an easy fold against LPPs. Loose-passive players don't raise flush draws (in general). [/ QUOTE ] You'd have to be a moron to fold in a multiway pot getting 15:1 odds to draw to whatever you are drawing to. Unless, of course, you were drawing to 1 out. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Then it's a fold, and it's not even close. This was just one of those hands where I was more than happy to relinquish any equity I had in the pot. I've never been so happy to fold pocket kings in my entire life.
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#20
03-01-2005, 06:46 AM
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Re: KK in SB - UGLY flop
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[ QUOTE ] If you check, you pretty much give up any claim at all to that pot. [/ QUOTE ] In these exact circumstances I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. [/ QUOTE ] Even though I learn best by arguing my position until I see why it's wrong, I think that you might be right here simply because: What happens if these LPs just call, say 2 of them, and a safe card comes on the turn, say 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? I think that I have to bet again, even though their calls have told me that I'm very likely beaten and they just aren't aggressive enough to raise and I'm pushing a 2d-best (or 3rd or 4th best) hand.
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