First post, getting started w/ an 88 hand - Page 2

MrWookie47 · #11 03-01-2005, 10:15 AM

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate the input about the bet/call line on the river rather than check/call. Here are the results:

CO shows [ 7d, 9h ] a straight, five to nine.
Hero doesn't show [ 8d, 8s ] three of a kind, eights.
UTG+1 doesn't show [ Jd, 7s ] high card queen.

It appears that my hunch was right, but I don't really regret my approach, even though some of you say I should have lost another BB. I did, however, find a friend in Mr. UTG+1. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

waynethetrain · #12 03-01-2005, 10:39 AM

"Am I the only one that doesn't like the flop bet? "

I wouldn't bet into a field this large either. Granted he may have been against some loose players that are playing garbage, but I think you are beat a good percentage of the time from this spot (and could be raised). There are also many overcards than can beat you even if you are lucky and noone has the Q.

I watch the action on the flop.

waynethetrain · #13 03-01-2005, 10:46 AM

"It's more likely no one has a queen than someone having one."

What would you estimate the probability is?

Even if it is less than 50% (which I agree is probably the case) how much do you gain by betting when you could easily get raised those times someone does have the Q?

I see 88s as a weak hand in a fairly large field that is in huge trouble against QQs (a decent percentage of the time) and also in trouble to lots of overcards. I don't bet the flop unless I am fairly certain I can KO several players for a single bet. That's usually not the case in these loose games. Why is that wrong?

To be honest, I'm looking for a way to get out of this hand.

DeadManJay · #14 03-01-2005, 11:05 AM

I would rather check this flop with the intention of raising a bet from LP. You have better than middle pair and a bet from EP does nothing to protect your hand. If someone from EP bets here I consider dropping. Facing them with 2 cold is much better than letting them call 1 bet. If it gets checked through at least you would know where you stand after the flop.

waynethetrain · #15 03-01-2005, 11:27 AM

Exactly my feeling.

If I am really worried about protecting my hand then I am looking to raise a bet from late position and force everyone to face 2 bets. That will get the job done.

If it gets checked through, I know where I stand. Maybe I gave a free card to someone by checking, but it hasn't cost me a dime to find out where I stand and what the turn card is when I'm not sure my single flop bet would have eliminated that person anyway.

I hate medium and small pocket pairs in fairly large fields when I am forced to act early. I get raised fairly often (beat) and even when I bet and am ahead, there are still too many players and overcards available to beat me.

For me, this is the exact kind of hand I believe needs to be discussed to death because the flop bet with a medium pocket pair form early position is taken for granted and I'm not sure it is right in big fields.

akira · #16 03-01-2005, 11:34 AM

I like this line better as well. It protects your vulnerable hand better, and there is also a better chance someone is bluffing if the bet came from LP. From an EP bettor I would comfortably fold this one too..

prrthd · #17 03-01-2005, 11:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It's more likely no one has a queen than someone having one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would disagree with this statement when you are against 4 players.

waynethetrain · #18 03-01-2005, 11:43 AM

"Thank you thank you thank you for betting the flop as not nearly enough people do that and its the easiest bet ever."

You are going to have to explain to me exactly why this is the easiest bet ever when the field is large and your medium pair is in the pocket and thus has only 2 outs in the event someone from this large field has a queen or an overcard that falls. I understand the concept of protecting your hand, but I don't see enough folds for a single bet for me to be comfortable betting this holding. IMO, this is not a particularly large enough pot to be playing a medium pocket pair against 4 other players with confidence. I am looking to get out.

KingOtter · #19 03-01-2005, 11:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]

For me, this is the exact kind of hand I believe needs to be discussed to death because the flop bet with a medium pocket pair form early position is taken for granted and I'm not sure it is right in big fields.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would bet the flop here. I don't know that 4 others is a 'big field'. Especially when 1 of them is the BB.

I don't think I want to pay 2SB for this hand, but I'd pay 1SB. If I check raise, I'm paying 2SB for this hand when someone else liked it enough to bet (unless it came from LP, which may just mean they can recognize weakness). With a bet out, if I'm raised I know I can fold.

So with 1SB I can find out if I'm way behind (if it gets raised), but for 2SB I learn...... what?

To me the bet out here is to try to find out how other people like their hands.

KO

waynethetrain · #20 03-01-2005, 12:32 PM

I can agree on not check raising. That's not what I would do either. I was using it as a way of stressing that a single bet does not really protect the hand well against loose passive players if that happened to be the primary reason for the flop bet.

I also agree that in the case of the bet, if you do get raised you know you are in trouble. But that information does you no good unless you then fold - which means you gave away a bet for that information.

If you check and it gets checked around. You also know where you are and you haven't lost a bet and can make a determination about what to do after seeing the turn card for free.

If after checking a bet comes from the player just to your left, I think you still can still suspect you are in trouble a fairly high percentage of the time and fold, thus saving something.

Then there are the times you check, someone bets, and someone else raises before it gets back to you. There you've clearly saved a bet.

Then there are times you bet and only get called by someone with a Q because the kicker was weak or they are passive. So you continue betting into a losing hand because you think you are best.

What I am saying is that I don't see enormous upside to betting from early position into 4 other players when there's an overcard on the board already and you only have 2 outs if you are either beat now or if an overcard comes. The simple reason is that a single bet is not going to drive most players out.

Against 1 or 2 others, I definitely bet.