My most difficult flop ever - Am I weak?

[Scuba Chuck]

I judge my 150 bet to be a value bet (and with the benefit of hindsight, I was correct). The calls led me to believe opponenets were on a draw or slow playing the flush.

The turn a rag. Well, I got what I wanted, and I pissed it away. I didn't know what to do. As Strasser said, "when I get confused I just push." I probably shoulda followed that advice here. Easy to say though. Anyway, I check, raise to my left, and a reraise allin to my all the way left.

Reflecting back, I do see Eastbays points now.
$22 worth of lessons.

[nokona13]

It was mentioned by a couple posters above that a re-raise pf is the right play. I always do that with AA, KK unless I'm on one of the blinds and am pretty confident I'll get heads up with only a call. Is there an argument from someone out there that if you're confident of your post-flop skills (ie not me), you only call here and accept the risk of multi-way flop in exchange for the increased liklihood of action on a ragged flop?

[Apathy]

This is a tricky hand, I am usually in this situation when I am the pf raiser and get a million calls. In general I never throw away aces on the flop in SNG play unless the spades were like QJ10 or something... I would have expected SB to have a set here and I very well may have folded without a read as other posters have said, the SB almost certaintly does not have a flush though.

I would also be worried that the SB was pushing the bare A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] as well.


See you at the tables Scuba.

Apathy

[stupidsucker]

I havent read all the posts.

I see that easybay recomends a call, and I understand his though process here. I on the other hand am going to make a fast judgment based on as many facts as I can.

My conclusion is "fold"

And this is why.... "IF" I ever got myself into this situation(hardly never) then I would fold simply because if I did lose It would hurt 10x as much because of the error I would have had to made preflop to get into this situation to begin with. This affects my mental attitude and may cause me to make more mistakes in the near future.

With the action on this flop chances are that one of your opponents has at least 1 Spade, and there is another good chance that they have the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. You can argue me that the chances are the same every time for someone having the As, but the action involved gives me info. If someone does have that A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] then there goes one of your outs if someone already has a set. I fear a set here much more then I fear a made flush. Id put pusher on the Ahigh draw and caller on a set.

Now... you can lose several ways. Made flush, drawn flush, 2 pair, set, straight.... you name it. I dislike the action, and AA is still just a pair. It hurts, but I let it go the large majority of the time.

The real point to be made is.... DONT do that preflop... Yes you already know this, but you did it anyways. People are very willing to play with you all in preflop with hands like QQ down to ATo.... why give them a free flop?

Had the flush come would you have even posted this? Probably not, because you would have felt that you made the right choice, and felt like a poker god for laying down aces avoiding a huge loss.


Edit: I noticed I spelled easybay's name wrong, but I think I like it.

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
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Eastbay, do you mean to say that you'd call?


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Yeah I think I call by default there. Could go otherwise depending on opponent, but given no more information, yeah, I think it's a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If its a call I think its close. Unless you are very comfortable with your SnG game I don't think your search for improvement should be related to identifying situations where you should make "close" all-in calls on level 2.

I'm not saying this is bad advice- I understand the reasoning and I know Eastbay is a better/more experienced SnG player than I am. However, as I become more and more comfortable and more and more successful with SnG play I continue to realize that during my early learning stages focusing on identifying times to make the right "all-in call" in "close" situations was not the right focus.

For a learning $11-$33 player, folding here and learning to make correct decisions later is better IMO. For a very experienced player who has SnG strategy down, this type of play is important. Before that, I think focusing on this type of play can be detrimental.

[nokona13]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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Eastbay, do you mean to say that you'd call?


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Yeah I think I call by default there. Could go otherwise depending on opponent, but given no more information, yeah, I think it's a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If its a call I think its close. Unless you are very comfortable with your SnG game I don't think your search for improvement should be related to identifying situations where you should make "close" all-in calls on level 2.

I'm not saying this is bad advice- I understand the reasoning and I know Eastbay is a better/more experienced SnG player than I am. However, as I become more and more comfortable and more and more successful with SnG play I continue to realize that during my early learning stages focusing on identifying times to make the right "all-in call" in "close" situations was not the right focus.

For a learning $11-$33 player, folding here and learning to make correct decisions later is better IMO. For a very experienced player who has SnG strategy down, this type of play is important. Before that, I think focusing on this type of play can be detrimental.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what should us learning 11-33 players be focusing on? Pre-flop (ie raising this hand), bubble, steals, timing/size of continuation/semi-bluff bets?

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
So what should us learning 11-33 players be focusing on? Pre-flop (ie raising this hand), bubble, steals, timing/size of continuation/semi-bluff bets?

[/ QUOTE ]

We're all learning, just at different stages. A player who is not yet *very* comfortable with SnG play could focus almost entirely on preflop and bubble play and not be far off base. There are a few good posts in the past week or so that talk about the advantage a good SnG player has on the bubble in $11-$33 SnG's. This advantage is key and is where focus should be in the early stages of learning.

[Pokerscott]

I agree with everyone saying the pre-flop raise is the play (I fold post flop with 5 people seeing the flop btw). However, everyone is saying the reason to preflop raise is to 'thin the herd'. I completely agree with that, but I find another key reason for the preflop raise is to create an enticing pot for someone to try and 'steal' with a push. A raise gives the original raiser another chance to act. So many people are afraid of playing poker after the flop that they will shove in all their chips pre-flop. With AA you want to give them every opportunity to do that!!!

Raising it up a little bit (say to T$150) gets rid of the weak hands, and gives all the bigger hands a very tasty pot to try and go for. My guess is a T$150 raise would have got you all-in pre flop with QQ and you would be sitting pretty.

Pokerscott

[nokona13]

Thanks for your replies NegativeEV. While I seem to have your attention, I thought I'd ask one more question. One situation which has been confusing me (so I've just been folding) has been bubble play on say level 4 or 5 where I'm mid stack but clearly <10xBB, maybe even closer to 5-6xBB on level 5. What do you do say in the small blind where you get a pf limper with a hand you'd probably push, but is not excellent, like maybe KTs or A7s or something, if you got two folds to you? Would you still push? Am I being weak and I should basically assume a limper on this level is a fish hoping to see a cheap flop and push with almost anything, or at least down to 67o or something? I've been default assuming this is either a low pocket or Ax or a savvy player with a monster who thinks someone will push if he limps, so I've been checking or folding without a mid PP or >AT...

[Scuba Chuck]

Nokona, you're asking the right questions. In Middle Play (loosely defined as that period from Level 4 to the bubble), when this occurs, I think it's entirely possible they have a "playable" limping hand, or a monster. It's entirely table read (or guess) whether you can mow them over or not. Is that player a "tricky" player? If so, I'd pass.

On the other hand, if it's the bubble, the answer is a different read entirely.