Loose game decisions

[andyfox]

While I think there are valid reasons for raising,

"you are hopefully tying more people to the river if you hit one of your flush outs or your gutshots."

The pot is already huge. These guys are already tied on. In fact, they're probably more likely to call a river bet is he doesn't raise now.

"You may cause the button to fold"

-I can't imagine button folding for one more bet here. He's been betting into a big field.

"Should you be reraised by anyone, you won't feel compelled to call the river even if you hit your A, since you can be fairly confident someone has a monster."

-With these guys, a 3-bet might mean they just want to build the pot. And if I hit an ace on the river, I'm not folding a forty-two thousand dollar pot (OK, maybe it's not quite that much [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]) for one bet with top pair against this lineup.

[andyfox]

Would you have bet out on the turn?

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is already huge. These guys are already tied on. In fact, they're probably more likely to call a river bet is he doesn't raise now.

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You don't think the large pot may cause more people to call if they call the turn? Who knows?

[ QUOTE ]
I can't imagine button folding for one more bet here. He's been betting into a big field.

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You never know. Opponents play bad. Remember when you bet your TT on an JJAxx board and caused QQ to fold on a huge huge pot, and I couldn't believe it? Granted it was on the river, but... Please refresh my memory if I'm wrong as it was a long time ago. If you can possibly buy the button on the turn, I think it gives you more flexibility on the river no matter how improbable. If button thinks that haakee isn't putting the move on tons of opponents with a solid image, he may let go of more hands than you think...

[ QUOTE ]
With these guys, a 3-bet might mean they just want to build the pot. And if I hit an ace on the river, I'm not folding a forty-two thousand dollar pot (OK, maybe it's not quite that much ) for one bet with top pair against this lineup

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I think if you're 3-bet by someone other than button at this stage, they should have at least two pair. I think hero should have discipline to save that one bet in this spot. You really think someone will have the gall to 3-bet something like KJ in this spot?

Garland

[JasonP530]

Not being critical. I know youre not going to bet it, the questions was, is it right to call? I guess in a 6 way pot thats been raised preflop, you should take off with 2 backdoor draws. Am I correct that you need somewhere around 18-1 closing the action? I do like the checkraise on the turn though.

Jason

[andyfox]

"You don't think the large pot may cause more people to call if they call the turn?"

-They sometimes give you more credit for a hand when you've raised on the turn and then bet the river than when you just bet the river. Plus now if one guy calls, after the turn raiser has already showed power, what chance would he have overcalling?

"You never know. Opponents play bad. Remember when you bet your TT on an JJAxx board and caused QQ to fold on a huge huge pot, and I couldn't believe it? Granted it was on the river, but... Please refresh my memory if I'm wrong as it was a long time ago."

-I suppose anything's possible, but I sure wouldn't expect the button to fold here. (Watch, haakee raised and he folded [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].) I don't remember the T-T hand you're referring to. (I barely remember what I had for dinner.) I'm not saying a raise is wrong here (in fact, I think Sucker's argument is a good one and a raise is the right play); but I don't think buton is going to fold.

"I think if you're 3-bet by someone other than button at this stage, they should have at least two pair."

-They check-called all the way with two pair and now when you raise, they 3-bet?

"You really think someone will have the gall to 3-bet something like KJ in this spot?"

-Like you say, opponents play bad sometimes.

[elindauer]

Raise for value. If somebody will fold a hand like AT, your raise may buy you three outs. If they won't, you'll get enough callers to make your raise profitable right there.


my 2 cents.
Eric

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Backdoor flush plus an overcard getting 22:1 closing the action is a no-brainer.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's weak that you neglected to mention the backdoor straight.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
You really think someone will have the gall to 3-bet something like KJ in this spot?

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"LOL"

[etizzle]

come on guys. Wether or not he calls the river the few times he gets 3-bet and happens to hit an ace is of almost no importance.

That said, he should probably fold if this does happen.

[elysium]

hi haakee

doggonnit haakee, pre-flop you make a value raise with a hand that currently doesn't have any value. the raise will only scare out opponents who might have otherwise called and been drawing slimly against your hand should in fact it develop, which haakee it has not done yet.

furthermore haakee, you might have to make a play to get the fold. this is just that type of hand. now, i don't have to tell you that there are numerous situations that this hand is prone to butt up against, that will require you to make some variation of a driveout bet or raise. doggonnit haakee.

what do you do? you offer all your opponents behind you to reraise and make it a flush or bust situation for you. sure, i see all the callers. your getting correct odds on your draw. but what about your A? what about the extra value of your backdoor outs? and look at what you've done to your relative position by the pre-flop raise. if you don't get reraised, you will be acting first, not last, on the next round. good you say? but what if you do pick up a solid draw? when it completes, you'll be first to act again. awww haakee.

hfap and top. you know the proceedure.