putting ppl on hands strictly by VP$IP

[Aaron W.]

I'm still convinced that this whole list isn't very useful in a practical sense.

Suppose you have a player who is 25% VPIP and plays 200 hands with you. Then you have a sample of only 50 hands from which he could have raised preflop. Each hand that he played is worth 2%, so you're not going to be able to get as fine a grading scale as you have. It also doesn't tell you anything about the situations in which he raised (open raise from late position, raising from the blinds, etc).

I still think it's better to just use generic terms rather than trying to isolate specific hands.

(My sessions tend to only last about 100 hands, so it's even harder for me to use this number in this way.)

[droolie]

I have plenty of players in my PT database with hundreds of hands. It's just intersting to see how few hands make up a percntage point. For instance the fact that AA and KK account for 1% can be useful.

You're right that it's probably common sense but I think it's cool to look at what PFR% a hand like AT0 is likely to be raised at.

You may not find any value in it but I look at this list from time to time now when I play.

If I'm in a hand with a pf raiser and he has a 4%PFR, I might look at the list and see what I'm likey to be up againt. Not that groundbreaking just a little mental crutch.

[John Paul]

Droolie,
Thanks for posting this, it looks useful to me - especially for thinking about folks with very small or very large PFR%.

PS I thought your post about losing too many hands in zulu's stats thread was hilarious even if others missed the joke altogether.

[BadBatsuMaru]

Obviously you need a pretty huge sample size for PFR to be accurate, but the only time I'm really all that concerned about this info is when I'm up against a good player, many of which I have 500+ hands on. Constantly I'll see a player that I have over 100 hands on and I'll be looking at hands he's raised with, and I'll see JJ, AQ, KQ, etc, but I won't see AA or KK. Certainly these are hands he would likely raise, but I don't have enough hands on him to actually have evidence of him raising AA or KK.

Up against your average micro player, I'm a little more interested in what vague ideas I can get of their cards based on their VP$IP. I mean, even if you only have 50 hands on someone, you're already getting an idea of what kind of hands they're playing, but it never occured to me that it would be as hard to pin down as John Paul suggests. Needing 400 hands on someone to pin down their VP$IP within 5% seem like a lot, but I suppose it's perfectly reasonable when you likely have seen less than 100 hands they were voluntarily in.

[4JStickMan]

What would be killer is if you could get the GameTime+ window to show what this guy has raised with from the position he is in and what cards he has PFR at all. The stats are in the PT database. Now that would be helpful.

[ClaytonN]

Given droolie's stats I'm probably a 6% PFR, because I usually open-raise KQ and ATs, but not 99, KJs, and QJs.

Is 6% a good number?

[droolie]

[ QUOTE ]
Given droolie's stats I'm probably a 6% PFR, because I usually open-raise KQ and ATs, but not 99, KJs, and QJs.

[/ QUOTE ] Raise them all!

[ QUOTE ]

Is 6% a good number?

[/ QUOTE ]

6% is on the low end of where you want to be. Get that number up around 10% and you'll be cooking.

[bottomset]

what about players who correctly adjust their raising standards according to position, #of limpers and such

how do you factor that in

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
what about players who correctly adjust their raising standards according to position, #of limpers and such

how do you factor that in

[/ QUOTE ]

In this simplistic model, you can't. You would need something much more sophisticated to keep track of that, and then you'd need a far more sophisticated model and many many many more hands (even if you split things up into EP, MP, LP, you're going to need 3 times as many hands to get the same level of accuracy in the readings as we are currently discussing). I still stand by using broad schemes in game time situations.

Specific hand ranges are nice when you're doing some theoretical computations and for study/review of past hands. This (study) is where you get all the intuition for figuring out about how much someone is raising and with approximately what.

PT is a nice program, but don't become overly dependent on it.

[droolie]

[ QUOTE ]
what about players who correctly adjust their raising standards according to position, #of limpers and such

how do you factor that in

[/ QUOTE ]

People who are solid pf have very predicatble pf raising ranges. They'll usually have a pfr %7-%10. Use the SSH chart and factor in steals and there you go.