First Foray Into Full Ring Games

[MasterShakes]

That you don't have any reads on anybody doesn't help us much. Knowing nothing about who you're up against, other than the limit....

Preflop: This looks textbook to me. Getting 3-bet can't feel good, as this is many times AK, but it could easily be JJ or TT. Nevertheless, calling is clearly correct.

Flop: You really need to bet here. You have TPGK. As I said in the preflop, many times you will be against AK, and this is just about the best possible flop for KQ against AK, leaving AK drawing very thin. I know it's a monotone flop, but when you check and call, rather than betting, you give yourself no way of knowing whether you're ahead, behind (against an overpair), up against a flush, etc. I would bet here. If you are raised, this could easily be a raise with AKo (with a diamond), so 3-bet. If capped, slow down on the later streets.

Turn: Once you get here with the action as it actually happened, I think you need to bet regardless. If you're just called, I think you need to assume that you're up against AK for the rest of the hand. If you're raised, slow down, as a turn raise is rather unlikely to be a bluff with overcards.

River: You NEED to value bet this river at this point. If you're raised, call. Checking and calling the whole way with TPGK, even with the preflop 3-bet and the monotone flop is not NEARLY as aggressive as you need to be.

I'm assuming from your comments that you were up against either a flopped flush, KK, AA, or QQ.

Whatever you do - don't fold this hand, and generally, play it more aggressively postflop.

[The Dude]

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Anybody else like the check-call, check-call, bet line here?

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This is a line I very often take. I barely ever fold to a river raise when I take this line, though, because it looks so much like a bluff. I often see AJ call this river bet.

[ErrantNight]

no... because on the river you'll get raised by a better hand and a worse hand will fold...

obviously not always, but assuming that your position hasn't changed from the flop, it's more likely that a bluffing opponent fires another one off on the river than a bluffing opponent calls you waking up on the river (which looks suspiciously like worry that it will get checked through).

So you win more when you're ahead, lose less when you're behind (assuming that you'll fold to a raise...)

[ErrantNight]

i disagree for the reasons i just posted... further, a check behind isn't terrible, as it indicates a hand unlikely to call you down.

obviously specific player reads can change this line.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
I barely ever fold to a river raise when I take this line, though, because it looks so much like a bluff.

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I see your point, but what hands can you actually put your opponent on which support calling the raise? If they have some showdown value, and they almost certainly do if they chose to 3-bet pre-flop, they're likely to just call.

Actually, that's assuming they have some idea what they're doing (or they aren't an expert), and sometimes they're just clueless and raise this river as a "bluff" with JJ so perhaps you can't fold. Is it often enough, though? It seems unlikely. Do you find yourself winning enough when you call river raises like this?

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]

no... because on the river you'll get raised by a better hand and a worse hand will fold...


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Why do you always post complete rubbish like this? It's clearly not true, lots of worse hands call this river, and there are more combinations of worse hands than better ones here.

[ErrantNight]

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Whatever you do - don't fold this hand, and generally, play it more aggressively postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

and you're willing to cap this flop before you slow down?

you're either way ahead or way behind. aggressiveness will scare away worse hands, and if you're intent on seeing the river you'll let better hands trap you for additional bets all day long.

[ErrantNight]

Before I storm off in a huff to drag up links where this way ahead/way behind passive approach is discussed... am I missing something?

You're either aware of the check/call line in that circumstance and I'm missing something about this hand that makes it inherently different... or you disagree with that line.

But it's not complete rubbish... I may be misapplying a concept here, but it's been well argued in the past, and this seems like a relatively textbook example.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
no... because on the river you'll get raised by a better hand and a worse hand will fold...

obviously not always, but assuming that your position hasn't changed from the flop, it's more likely that a bluffing opponent fires another one off on the river than a bluffing opponent calls you waking up on the river (which looks suspiciously like worry that it will get checked through).

So you win more when you're ahead, lose less when you're behind (assuming that you'll fold to a raise...)

[/ QUOTE ]
I think J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is calling if you pull a check/call, check/call, bet line. So is T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Not all better hands are raising the river here, either. And some players will call down with AK unimproved, hoping to snap off a bluff.

If he's really aggressive, I don't mind check/call, check/call, check/call here. I don't know where, if anywhere, I'd fold TP2K, and I'm not sure HU that I want to spend extra bets to find out if I'm good or not, when I could just spend those bets calling down.

Rob

[ErrantNight]

how on earth do you attack me on one post and then use my logic here.

baffling.

i suppose you could have supposed me for a complete moron (wait... from your "why do you always post complete rubbish" comment you did...) and assumed that i meant "always all worst hands will fold and always all betteyr hands will raise" which is insanely shortsighted of you. what's your impetus for betting this river? if he "just calls" he may have you beat, and you may win. if he raises, he most likely has you beat although may rarely be bluffing. if he folds, your raise gains nothing. if you check he may check behind you and still have you beat. you may win this pot and have missed a bet that he MAY have called, although he might have folded. if you check and he bets and you call, all the same circumstances apply...

so how frequently will you win this pot for the maximum amount of money given these circumstances?

most frequently when you check/call. you get a showdown, eliminating the threat of being raised (leaving you with two bad options: call and usually be wrong to call, or fold and occasionally be wrong to fold), you will frequently get a worse hand to fire another bullet, and you will infrequently lose one bb when, and only when, your opponent had a worse hand and would have called.