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#11
10-30-2004, 06:06 AM
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Re: Check-raise the river?
Stellar......
I'm not sure that I should apologize...I wasn't insulting him, I was merely suggesting he study up if he would lay this hand down for one bet in the BB 5 handed.....I am fairly surprised that the people who have responded think this is a marginal call here..... I said UTG was that he was a maniac preflop, but slows down without a hand postflop .....I think most people are missing that point....other than the preflop aggression from one player, the table is still a regular old passive 2/4 game.... [ QUOTE ] Strange thing to say. I know exactly where you are at. You are miles behind everyone but you have nine really good outs. [/ QUOTE ] This is hardly the case all the time.....The maniac has 2 cards......Seat 3 is probably ahead right now, although she could very well have a medium PP, and Seat 5 also has any 2 cards.....To say I am miles behind everyone is a vast overstatement.... I guess I should have said I bet to see where everyone else was at......I wanted to see if the maniac would raise my lead bet, and I also wanted to see if the PF capper liked her hand enough to 3 bet...... Finally, I am checking the turn automatically no matter what card comes....If I make and bet a flush on the turn, that will scare them...I'm would be check-raising it on the turn at the very least.....I don't think I'm giving away the flush draw one bit when I check here....If I was worried about that, I wouldn't have check-raised the river, and if I had given it away, the river would have been checked around..... 
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#12
10-30-2004, 06:32 AM
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Re: Check-raise the river?
Fold preflop, maniacs love to limp reraise.
When they limp and someone raises its like being challenged, they have to 3bet it to prove their manhood. I think it might be better to just bet the river hoping for a raise then you can 3bet. When someone checkraises the river its unlikely someone without the nuts or close to it is going to 3bet with their good hand.
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#13
10-30-2004, 10:52 AM
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Re: Check-raise the river?
Would you call one raise from the BB with this hand if you were closing the action??
Everyone seems to think that because it is 3-bet and capped, that makes the preflop call weak.....I think calling 2 or 3 bets cold is weak, and I wouldn't do it.....The PF maniac hadn't limp-raised before this hand, I don't think it's expected that he is going to re-raise here...In fact, he never limp re-raised after this hand either... I said I wished I'd seen it coming, but after thinking about it, folding because you think the next player to act is going to raise after he limped in would require an amazing read.... It seems like most of you would fold this after it's capped coming back to you.....My gorilla math says that I'm faced with 11.5-1, can someone tell me I'm wrong and explain how it's not correct to try and flop a flush draw??
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#14
10-30-2004, 11:07 AM
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Re: Check-raise the river?
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure that I should apologize...I wasn't insulting him, I was merely suggesting he study up if he would lay this hand down for one bet in the BB 5 handed.....I am fairly surprised that the people who have responded think this is a marginal call here..... [/ QUOTE ] Then maybe you're the one who needs to hit the books? [ QUOTE ] To say I am miles behind everyone is a vast overstatement.... [/ QUOTE ] Change "miles" to "meters" and I'll agree with Stellar [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] [ QUOTE ] I guess I should have said I bet to see where everyone else was at [/ QUOTE ] [sings the following] "You say 'miles,' I say 'meters;' let's call the whole thing off." [ QUOTE ] Finally, I am checking the turn automatically no matter what card comes....If I make and bet a flush on the turn, that will scare them [/ QUOTE ] Really...you bet and cap that all-Broadway flop, and everyone is going to put you on a flush because you bet out on the turn when another spade hits? I don't mean to sound rude, but I think you need to reread my initial comment in this reply.
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#16
10-30-2004, 11:47 AM
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Re: Check-raise the river?
[ QUOTE ]
folding because you think the next player to act is going to raise after he limped in would require an amazing read [/ QUOTE ] It's not that amazing. You said he was screwing around and had raised every hand. Now he has just limped ... But that's just the icing on the cake. T2s is too weak to call even if backraising is against the rules. [ QUOTE ] My gorilla math says that I'm faced with 11.5-1, can someone tell me I'm wrong and explain how it's not correct to try and flop a flush draw?? [/ QUOTE ] My chimp math says it is 9.25-1 less rake. You have four opponents, plus your own money and the dead SB. However that is not the point. Any argument for calling a blind that begins by quoting pot odds is irrelevant unless someone is all-in. The deal isn't over if you flop a nice hand. The amount of money that you may win or lose postflop is much more important than the amount of money in the preflop pot.
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#17
10-30-2004, 12:45 PM
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Re: Check-raise the river?
What are you hoping to hit with T2s? Top pair is not going to win in this pot. 2 pair, trips, or flush are really what you hope to hit. And none of those are going to be the nuts. You've got a 10% chance to hit one of these hands through the river. 9:1 odds if you play the whole way to hit a hand which may not be the winner. 1.5 bets in, 1 calls, 3 raise, 5 call, BTN call... 8.5:1 to you to call. Pot odds aren't there to start with for such a terrible hand. Second, against 5 players T2s wins approximately 14.8% of the time against random hands, so you aren't even going to win your fair share with this... less so because the hands aren't random and can be narrowed down. Finally, in all the live 2/4 that I've played, it is almost always loose/passive... you sometimes get a LAG like seat 1, but it is rare. When someone other than seat 1 raised, you have to believe your odds to win with this hand just went down to about 15:1 or higher.
I will paraphrase Ed Miller in saying that 'no preflop call is a REALLY bad play'. I wouldn't do it, but if you think it is such a great hand... be my guest.
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#18
10-30-2004, 06:50 PM
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Re: Check-raise the river?
[ QUOTE ]
The amount of money that you may win or lose postflop is much more important than the amount of money in the preflop pot [/ QUOTE ] Okay, that is what I'm looking for......If I don't flop a flush draw, 2 pair, trips, etc....I'm out...I'm not going to bother going anywhere without the flop hitting me hard.....That's why I don't think it's a bad play for me to call.....this hand is basically worthless outside of the flush potential.....I'll make lots when I hit, I'll lose little when I miss..... I will consider your comments though, and I'll probably be playing suited cards a little less now... thanks...
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