Presence Of "Evil?"

[kalooki45]

Main Entry: jeal·ous
Pronunciation: 'je-l&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English jelous, from Old French, from (assumed) Vulgar Latin zelosus, from Late Latin zelus zeal -- more at ZEAL
1 a : intolerant of rivalry or unfaithfulness
3 : vigilant in guarding a possession

Have you tried asking Him? [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[SnakeRat]

Plenty of people suffer simply due to misfortune. Many cases have nothing to do with free will. How could a good god allow so much suffering?

[Mayhap]

In many ways, suffering is the engine that drives the evolution of the species.
/M

[kalooki45]

I'm serious--ASK Him--and KEEP asking. He's the Great Teacher, you know. If you genuinely want to know something about God--He's the source of all knowledge.

Suffering is a tough question--it plagues believers and non-believers alike.
Sometimes it helps me to look at the things from the opposite direction.

The Bible says that Man is a fallen creature. Born in sin, and living in rebellion against God. (Sin can be seen as rebellion in some contexts).
If you accept the Bible's statement, then you might ask how much suffering does God PREVENT?
If we truly are all sinners (and I see nothing in the world to DISPROVE it), in a state of rebellion against God and His Laws, caring only for ourselves, unloving, unspiritual, and unwilling to acknowledge Him--then what sort of world should we expect?
Perhaps we should thank Him more often for every day we DON'T suffer! What makes us think we DESERVE anything more? What has each of US done today to alleviate ANYONE'S suffering? [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
The Bible says that Man is a fallen creature. Born in sin, and living in rebellion against God. (Sin can be seen as rebellion in some contexts).
If you accept the Bible's statement, then you might ask how much suffering does God PREVENT?
If we truly are all sinners (and I see nothing in the world to DISPROVE it), in a state of rebellion against God and His Laws, caring only for ourselves, unloving, unspiritual, and unwilling to acknowledge Him--then what sort of world should we expect?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm struggling with this. If we are all born in sin then that's the way god decreed it should be. So all the suffering that results is down to god. Then god prevents some of this suffering providing we worship him.

This sounds like an argument against god being good, which I'm sure is not what you mean.

chez

[kalooki45]

Sorry if I was murky [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]
[ QUOTE ]
If we are all born in sin then that's the way god decreed it should be.

[/ QUOTE ]

According to the Bible, Man chose to sin through disobedience.
God told Man that to "eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge" would result in death. Or in other words, Man chose Knowledge over God's known will, lost innocence and perfection, and in the process brought death to the world. Man wanted to REPLACE God with his own wisdom, and become as a God himself. Through his God-given free will, he could and did make this choice for himself.


[ QUOTE ]
So all the suffering that results is down to god.

[/ QUOTE ]

According to scripture, there was no death or suffering before the Fall, so we can ascribe suffering to Man, not God. ( I'm leaving out Satan, as he will only complicate things needlessly) :P

[ QUOTE ]
Then god prevents some of this suffering providing we worship him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't very clear. What I was trying to say was that if you accept a fallen world, in rebellion against God (goodness and holiness), one could logically expect it to be even WORSE than it is. I ascribe the lack of constant, universal suffering to God's mercy. His mercy is for everyone, not just those who worship Him.

No one respects a parent who allows their children to "run wild" without correction. It's universally understood that to excessively protect them from the consequences of their mistakes "spoils" them, and results in a warped, rotten kid who will never reach true maturity.

God is not a bad parent,
but "tough love" isn't very popular with the recipients!

He wants to bring us to a saving faith in Him, a Trust that we naturally lack. Suffering is ONE of the things that gets our attention...and that attention is paramount to Him, because He desires our eternal salvation, and is "unwilling that any should perish".

[Panace50]

you assume the suffering of others...you can only know your own situation. the things you perceive as suffering can be likened to puppets or robots except in *their* reality. If there are people who make decisions thtt put them in situations that seem miserable, it is something they need to experience.

When you say children don't choose, you are not allowing for the possibility of reincarnation. Again, it is a whole package that involves creating your own reality, but not being responsible for others except in how you feel about your behavior. If you are not proud of your behavior it isn't good for you. If you are proud of it, it is good for you. However, what you do has no *real* affect on others except as an example of good or bad results.

[kalooki45]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are not proud of your behavior it isn't good for you. If you are proud of it, it is good for you. However, what you do has no *real* affect on others except as an example of good or bad results.

[/ QUOTE ]

Objection! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
1. The people beheading captives in the name of God (shudder) right now are proud of their behavior.
2. If someone cuts my head off, it definitely has an impact.
3. At the end of your sentence, you say "good or bad" results....by whose standard, assuming your argument holds water?

It's a very basic question, but one we each need to answer for ourselves--is there, or is there not, ONE STANDARD for good/evil? IS there such a thing as TRUTH, or is everything subjective in the end?

The Bible says there IS a standard, by which ALL men are measured. It says there IS truth --which will "set you free".
What say ye?

[CaptObvious]

Thanks for all the replies. As far as myself, I don't suppose I'm "looking" for any answer in particular. That's just one of those questions I think most of us have across in regards to religion, and at least some of the people I've asked have given lets say, less then intelligent responses. *L*

I just like hearing different pov's about this subject. It's always nice to get a refreshing perspective.

Well, my question is this at that moment. Speaking from purely a logical perspective. Regardless of your views on "Free Will," the statements I had posted above:

Or, is he able, but, not willing. Then that would make him malevolent.
Yes? No? Maybe? It just seems as far as logistics play out, that in the bible, we have the Ten Commandments, and within those Commandments we have "Thou Shalt Not Kill."
Assuming God created us in his image, then it would stand to reason, would it not, that he would be incapable of doing anything "less than Godlike," right? Because we're under the assumption that God is perfect. Then that would mean anger, retribution, justice, and let's say in this case malovelance, because that's what this statements regarding, right? His unwillingness to stop suffering, or "evil."

Now, I'm neither really pro or anti-God. I'm just looking for different opinions. Please feel free to berate me if I'm wrong. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] *L*

[kalooki45]

[ QUOTE ]
Is God willing to prevent evil, but, unable?
Then that would mean he's not omnipotent, right?
Or, is he able, but, not willing.
Which would mean he's malevolent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Theology aside, this is flawed logic. You are making all sorts of ASSUMPTIONS in order to reach your conclusions.

Your question addresses a LOT of foundational issues in Christianity.
1. Free Will
2. Original Sin
3. The Wrath of God
4. Justice
5. Salvation
6. Man's relationship to God
7. Faith

The reason you will never get a 'logical' answer is because your own question is illogical.
*and it covers a lot more ground than can be covered in a forum like this.