Worst Advice Ever... - Page 2

pipes · #11 09-24-2004, 08:03 PM

Sklansky echoes the same exact advice on page 119 of Sklansky on Poker.

David Sklansky · #12 09-25-2004, 02:57 AM

"Sklansky echoes the same exact advice on page 119 of Sklansky on Poker"

Oh my God. I sure don't. I say the exact opposite. I advise keeping the pot smaller so you can correctly get away from your hand (especially if your opponent won't). The time I advocate reraisng is when your hand is so strong that you will take a fourth card even if you didn't reraise. If Phil Hellmuth did say what he was quoted as saying he is simply wrong.

Al Mirpuri · #13 09-25-2004, 05:39 AM

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If Phil Hellmuth did say what he was quoted as saying he is simply wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

He said it and it is in print for everyone to see and laugh at.

Moreover, he mysteriously states, at the beginning of the book, how there are certain books that he reads and reads again...I was wondering what these could be...

Al Mirpuri · #14 09-25-2004, 05:45 AM

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I don't understand why the logic above is wrong. Even before I read Hellmuth's chapter on razz, I always believed that jamming with a good low order to make the pot big (and hence you have value to chase draws) was always correct. Anybody could explain the flaws in reasoning here?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Your edge is either nonexistent or very small on third with three low cards.

2. Even with jamming you just do not have the correct odds to chase.

kiddo · #15 09-25-2004, 06:26 AM

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I just don't trust anyone who is an expert in his field, yet refuses to read contemporary literature by acknowledged authorities

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Yep!

pipes · #16 09-25-2004, 12:22 PM

David, okay I see the important distinction. I was just trying to defend PH's advice in this case because you appeared at first glance to agree with it.

In Phil's book, he says to do this if you have a strong hand, not simply a good hand as the original poster states.

In PH's example:

J, 6, 7, 8, 5, and 6 (hero)

J(bring in), 6 raises, 7 calls...you have (A3)6

He advocates raising to ensure you have odds to see 5th even if you catch bad.

Bad advice?

Thx

pipes · #17 09-25-2004, 12:29 PM

Al, I think you are being a little over dramatic with your 'Worst advice ever' subject line. I have a large poker library and have seen much much worse stuff in print.

I think its important to note that PH says to do this when you have a strong had or the best starting hand. Not simply a good hand as you put it.

Key West · #18 09-25-2004, 01:28 PM

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I advise keeping the pot smaller so you can correctly get away from your hand (especially if your opponent won't).

[/ QUOTE ]

But isn't it correct to reraise in order to trim the field and get more money into the pot? Give your opponents the opportunity to fold, but if they don't then you have created a larger pot with better odds to draw.

bygmesterf · #19 09-26-2004, 12:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Play Poker Like The Pros

Hellmuth states in the Razz section that you must jam with good hands on third so that if fourth comes bad you will have the pot odds to chase. If you did not jam on third then when fourth came bad you would not have the pot odds to chase.

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Thats actully correct to do with a premium hand (Low and Live ) on 3rd, the 3bet, creates momentum such that you are correct to go on to 5th street regardless of what happens on 4th.

If your opponent (a good player) would fold incorectly on 4th street, or might semi-bluff with a paired hand when you check your smooth hand into him. Then you have set up a very profitable situation, and even if not, you are still in contention for the pot on 5th.

If you read Sklansky on Razz, you will see why sometimes you shouldn't 3-bet and sometimes you should 3-bet. Pages 118-120 of SKOP.

Basicly you don't 3-bet against weak players, so they can make one set of mistakes on 4th (Staying in when they should fold) and against strong players you make the 3-bet so they can make a different set of mistakes (Folding when they should call).

In addition if you have any suspicion that the raiser is trying to steal, you should reraise to punish their semibluff. Many people will incorrectly play out the hand with a steal/weak hand if they have been 3bet.

Thus a good razz player is not going to play his premium hands in selfweighting manner. But this is fairly technical and subtle point, and phil's book is for beginners, so I dont think you can fault it for not talking about this in great depth.

bygmesterf · #20 09-26-2004, 12:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why the logic above is wrong. Even before I read Hellmuth's chapter on razz, I always believed that jamming with a good low order to make the pot big (and hence you have value to chase draws) was always correct. Anybody could explain the flaws in reasoning here?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Your edge is either nonexistent or very small on third with three low cards.

2. Even with jamming you just do not have the correct odds to chase.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. The advantage may be slim or it might be fairly big if you catch someone getting out of line. So 3-betting isn't wrong for that reason alone.

2. Also wrong. 3 betting specifically creates the pot odds to chase till 5th. This is the central issue, is it or is it not to *YOUR* advantage to 3-bet such that everyone has odds to chase till 5th?