Is there any debate? - Page 2

Kevin J · #11 08-20-2004, 10:25 AM

I said the blinds call 65% of the time alone. The button probably calls 33% as well. So that would make it less than 35% that you win uncontested, right?

Kevin J · #12 08-20-2004, 11:08 AM

First, don't get me wrong. I could never bring myself to limp from here, but I'm starting to re-question my reasons for raising and exactly why it is more profitable. Lately, I've been playing online and in a new card room and I'm finding this hand (88,77), more and more difficult to play (I think someone else posted about this a while back, but no one responded in depth).

It used to be there was a legitimate chance to pick up the blinds from this spot. If not, then there was also a legitimate chance to pick up the pot with a bet after being called pre-flop. These are at least two attractive reasons to raise (I know there may be others).

But as the games (players?), become looser and more tenacious, it creates some situations that I never used to run into as often. I specifically stated that the opponents were passive post-flop (whether they are passive because they weak players or because they know what they are doing is irrelevant). This passivity can cause problems. Take a flop of Jh,7s,5h. I bet and get called. I am now compelled to bet (too many cards), on the turn. Because of their looseness pre-flop and passivity on the flop, I can't be sure what I'm being called with. Too often lately, it's with a hand like QJo and I find myself putting my money in on the turn with only 2 outs. I hate that! I'd rather have a hand like 87s. At least I figure to have 5 outs when I'm behind.

Now on the river, I run into another problem. If I check, it seems I am more likely to face a bet these days. Because this new breed of player (both online and live), even though he might be passive on the flop and turn, thinks nothing of running a bluff on the river after a check. He might be betting a busted flush or straight draw but he might also be betting a pair of fives or sevens! This makes sense, because he probably puts me on a big ace/no pair type of hand after I check. So his bet with a pair of fives or sevens because a two-way bet. Maybe he'll get paid off by ace-high, or maybe he'll get a hand like 88 to fold!

Is my game just completely falling apart? I never used to have problems here. But lately, it seems that I'm getting lost during the hand and out-played. To the point where I'm starting to question exactly WHY I'm raising pre-flop with these hands. I still could never bring myself to open-limp from the cut-off with 88, but I'm not sure why.

rigoletto · #13 08-20-2004, 11:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
First, don't get me wrong. I could never bring myself to limp from here, but I'm starting to re-question my reasons for raising and exactly why it is more profitable. Lately, I've been playing online and in a new card room and I'm finding this hand (88,77), more and more difficult to play (I think someone else posted about this a while back, but no one responded in depth).

It used to be there was a legitimate chance to pick up the blinds from this spot. If not, then there was also a legitimate chance to pick up the pot with a bet after being called pre-flop. These are at least two attractive reasons to raise (I know there may be others).

But as the games (players?), become looser and more tenacious, it creates some situations that I never used to run into as often. I specifically stated that the opponents were passive post-flop (whether they are passive because they weak players or because they know what they are doing is irrelevant). This passivity can cause problems. Take a flop of Jh,7s,5h. I bet and get called. I am now compelled to bet (too many cards), on the turn. Because of their looseness pre-flop and passivity on the flop, I can't be sure what I'm being called with. Too often lately, it's with a hand like QJo and I find myself putting my money in on the turn with only 2 outs. I hate that! I'd rather have a hand like 87s. At least I figure to have 5 outs when I'm behind.

Now on the river, I run into another problem. If I check, it seems I am more likely to face a bet these days. Because this new breed of player (both online and live), even though he might be passive on the flop and turn, thinks nothing of running a bluff on the river after a check. He might be betting a busted flush or straight draw but he might also be betting a pair of fives or sevens! This makes sense, because he probably puts me on a big ace/no pair type of hand after I check. So his bet with a pair of fives or sevens because a two-way bet. Maybe he'll get paid off by ace-high, or maybe he'll get a hand like 88 to fold!

Is my game just completely falling apart? I never used to have problems here. But lately, it seems that I'm getting lost during the hand and out-played. To the point where I'm starting to question exactly WHY I'm raising pre-flop with these hands. I still could never bring myself to open-limp from the cut-off with 88, but I'm not sure why.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Kevin

You managed to post a postflop problem as a preflop problem. Raising preflop is definately correct, so that is not the question. You need to gage your opponents and vary your play.

Sometimes you should check the turn if the button stays in: namely when he's only likely to call with a better hand or a big draw. These passive players does check behind on the turn with a draw a substantial amount of the time. If he bets the turn on a drawless board you can often fold. On a drawing board you can often call and you'll get a free showdown a lot of the time. A few times you should checkraise the turn.

My point is that they are just calling because they know you'll bet all the way with a worse hand and fold if they raise (at least that's how I often play the button here).

Kevin J · #14 08-20-2004, 12:24 PM

I think it does have to do with pre-flop in a way. For instance, in a 3-handed game you wouldn't always raise with A6o from the button if you knew the blinds were almost 100% likely to call. You can't fold, so it is sometimes better to limp. I know this is different, but I thought parts of this concept may apply.

Since I've been playing online, I'm having problems dealing with looseness and tenacity. It could also be that I'm just plain running bad lately. That is, when I raise 88 and get called by QJo, it seems my opponents are out-flopping me more times than not lately.

rigoletto · #15 08-20-2004, 01:37 PM

I don't remember ever openlimping from the button with anything. Of course you can fold A6o if the blinds are tricky defenders. Otherwise you should raise.

Kevin J · #16 08-20-2004, 01:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't remember ever openlimping from the button with anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is usually correct in full games with typical blinds, but a raise or fold mentality is NOT correct against overly loose blinds or in short-handed play. In other words, it is sometimes correct to make the *fishy* play of limping. This is covered in HPFAP and I believe Mason has wrote about this several times somewhere else too. It's very rare, and I'm not saying 88 is the hand to do it with, but I agree there are times for open limping even after everyone else folds to you in late position.

Barry · #17 08-20-2004, 03:39 PM

Open limping from the CO or button is usually a mistake if there is any reasonable chance of winning the blinds. I will usually fold smaller pairs rather than raise.

If a pretty decent player open limps from the CO or button, it usually means a monster like AA or KK or he's at least trying to make you think he has it.

Kevin J · #18 08-20-2004, 04:11 PM

You didn't say anything I haven't said. Except that open limping even from the button CAN be correct in certain instances. If you don't agree, take it up with DS and MM. Not me.

rigoletto · #19 08-20-2004, 04:22 PM

Well I assumed we where not talking shorthanded here. HEPFAP doesn't specify this, but I suspect the advice to sometimes limp is because you take the blinds more often in shorthanded games. With very loose blinds it means that you have to play more hands to keep up!

Kevin J · #20 08-20-2004, 05:01 PM

Interesting, because I got a completely different impression. That is, you sometimes limp, because a hand is too good to throw away, yet will be hard to play after the flop when you are sure to get called pre-flop if you raise. With no chance of picking up the blinds outright, there is less reason to raise.

The A6o is an example. In a 3 handed game, this is simply too much hand to throw away. Yet it will often be difficult to know how to proceed post-flop if you get any play.

Anyway, this relates specifically to short-handed, but I thought some of the concepts might carry over to full handed games when you are also sure to get called by one of the blinds and/or the button in this case. That is, without that extra equity of winning the blinds outright, there are still hands which should be played, because they are too good to throw away, yet might not be worth raising with due to post-flop considerations. Again, I know 88 is not likely this type of hand. And yes, I know it seems as though I'm posing a post-flop question, with a pre-flop one. But shouldn't you consider post-flop when making pre-flop decisions?

Like I said, in all probability I'm just running bad. To the point where I wince raising AK here scared of getting out-flopped. But running bad has always been a good thing for me, because it gets me thinking a little more about things I would never think about while running good. Thanks for you help.