UB 10/20 Red Kings, Bad Flops

[Jdanz]

i like the pre-flop line because that way you don't give up too much, can likely get in at least an extra sb somewhere, and you don't give up an extra sb if an ace flops, i really like kings, but sometimes it's good (i'm only advocating this heads-up) to see if the ace comes.

You guys know better then me, but you're most likely behind, i would say very significantly more likely then that you're ahead, is it really that likely that tt or jj is going to bet the turn and the river?

i'm not sure but i think calling down here could be a mistake, as that's about the worst flop you can see.

Call if you hit another flush card otherwise i consider a fold on either the turn or the river.

-JDanz

[JohnShaft]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd cap preflop every time. If he's actually a decent player I'm willing to bet you get, AT MOST, 1 extra SB or BB post flop so I don't really see the point in not capping preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yek, I've got to say I completely disagree.
I'm suprised the PF part got mentioned.

I'm headsup with position on a solid aggressive (but of course somewhat predictable) opponent.

I am giving up 1 SB. I expect to often get back AT LEAST 1 SB here, and often more. You said I get at most 1 (SB or) BB back here. I'm fine with getting 1 BB back. I'm up in that situation.

The fact that my opponent is tight-agressive, fairly decent/observant and he is out of position will make him play aggressively against me if I don't cap, and I leave him with the initiative. If I do cap he'll know I have a supersolid hand, and will slow down significantly postflop unless he beats me.

Consider a typical Flop, give him a hand like QQ/JJ.
Typical action in both scenarios

I call the 3-bet Preflop
752r
He bets, I raise, He 3-bets, I call
Turn Brick
He bets, I raise, He calls and Calls the River.
I make 4.5 BBs.

I Cap Preflop
752r
He bets, I raise, He calls
Turn Brick
He checks, I bet, He calls and calls the River.
I make 3 BBs.
I think this is a response he will often take if I cap preflop. Even if he doesn't, he might just call the Flop raise and bet the Turn. And I've recouped the .5 BB even on this more aggressive line.

Against a solid aggressive hand reader who knows I am the same I definitely like underrepresenting my hand headsup with position.
Against a weak "only looks at his own cards" I probably cap Preflop every time. It's the fact he's decent and therefore can be manipulated that I *don't* cap...

[JohnShaft]

Hi BDK. I hadn't read that post but will find time to now.

Randy didn't cap despite having two cold-callers behind him already in for two bets. He either gets another bet out of them or gets them to fold and gets 1 BB dead money out of each.
He's giving up 1.5 BBs right there. I hate the hell out of that...

[tj00]

I think I would bet the flop here. Your hand looks more like a big ace than a PP. So it would be hard for him to CR on the flop with with a worse hand than yours. If he still CR then I cut it loose. If he hit the flop really hard he may try to go for a turn CR. This will save you .5 a BB when you check the turn through. I would probably check the turn on any non king turn card.

[MN_Mime]

I'm not certain why AKs is being discounted for TAG. After the preflop, couldn't TAG also be wary of QQ or even AQs given the non-cap PF? I don't think a check clearly indicates a PP improving to a set.

<shrugs>

I'm one of those weaker players. I probably bet out 2nd pair to see where I am.

[JohnShaft]

Hi Mime. Thanks for making this your first post.

You know what, I had blinkers on after the hand and I put him on QQ or AA. Well after the hand had finished I thought "you idiot, why in the hell couldn't he have AK?". And of course he could.
I didn't think he'd make that 3-bet Preflop with AQ against my UTG raise but he definitely could have with AK.

But as for your thoughts I don't think he would be particularly scared of QQ, or even AQ here. Not this early. With AK he'll be pretty much going to a showdown on this flop. And as such he is probably going to put his foot on the pedal at least a little.

Of course the problem is I know *I* am behind even to AK... In fact this whole flop has me in a world of hurt.

[MN_Mime]

Thanks for the welcome!

I agree you're almost certainly behind and I only wanted to suggest that there are several variations that would inspire TAG's betting pattern that don't spell doom and gloom.

If you missed your read or he's playing JJ/TT, you're way ahead and I don't think you're extracting any value or info checking the flop and possibly giving him a chance to catch up or bluff you out with a turn bet.

If you bet and he calls, he has to be concerned the rest of the way and be prepared for a 3-bet just as you know that he's probably got you beat and should release the hand to any further action.

I'd release to a raise by TAG on the flop.

---

Maybe this would cost me an extra SB, since you guys have sniffed out the set where I think you're possibly jumping at shadows [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] How did it play out?

[MoreWineII]

I'm curious as to how it played out too John. Against a loose and/or passive player it would just be a blah hand but add a TAG in there and it suddenly becomes interesting since those are the players most of us are trying to emulate.

Read: I want to see if he can outplay you with a worse hand or not. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[JohnShaft]

[ QUOTE ]
Read: I want to see if he can outplay you with a worse hand or not. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Hah. Well he did half of that. He outplayed me. But not with a worse hand (not that I got to see it, but I still 'know'.)

I absolutely butchered the flop. I just hacked at it with a meat cleaver until it was beaten and bloodied.

So I bet the flop. (I was pretty darn suprised he didn't bet it too.) Mistake 1.
As most have pointed out there is no value in this and a whole lot of value in checking with the intention of putting a bet in on (probably) every street (mostly calling).
I think my brain switched off on the flop actually.

And he checkraised.
So, what do I go and do, yes, that's right. Not only did I not call, or fold, I made the absolutely worst play imaginable.
I 3-bet. Ugh.
Why did you 3-bet you moron? I'm only half sure myself. I did it intending to get to the showdown for 2.5 BBs (a half more than it should have been, by checking the Turn) I guess. I guess I said to myself he was capable of CRing me on that flop with a worse hand knowing that I could make a laydown, but I think that's very much just wishful thinking on my part.
Maybe it was part "spite 3-bet" I guess. I'd underrepresented my hand preflop, and really messed up on the flop because of it.
In fact if I thought I was capable of misplaying a hand THIS badly even occasionally I hate my Preflop Call. But this was a real abberation and about the worst play I can recall of myself for some time.

And after I 3-bet, yeah he Caps. I'm like so toast here it's untrue. He's got AK minimum, and could easily have either AA or QQ. And I acutally do think the latter two are more likely.
I called the Cap. Partly because I'm not good enough to 3-bet and fold to the cap here, and partly because of backdoor outs I guess.
But I know I'm totaly beat here at present.

So I call and the Turn is the 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I have the nutflush draw and call.
But you know what, I'm not even sure I like this call as I still need him to have like AK and not AA/QQ. At the time I didn't even think about it. And that's the problem. I just wasn't thinking after the Preflop action ended.

Sanity kicked in on the River when the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] hit, and I just folded to his bet.

So I think it's pretty much a textbook example of how NOT to play this hand postflop. Which is why I posted it.
After the session I was hit with *how much* better checking the flop and calling down is. I think to play it any other way in this situation is just plain WRONG.
[I think he had Queens btw.]

The other Red Kings hand against the same guy a while later, with position. I 3-bet his open raise. The flop was all Clubs and Ace-Rag high. I bet the Flop and Turn, and checked the blank river (no more clubs) and he had KQc and had flopped the nut flush.
I guess he just had the hex on me. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[MoreWineII]

[ QUOTE ]
I 3-bet his open raise. The flop was all Clubs and Ace-Rag high. I bet the Flop and Turn, and checked the blank river (no more clubs) and he had KQc and had flopped the nut flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait, he never raised you with the nuts?