Party and the Old "Bet into you on the Turn (after calling Flop)" Move

[JohnShaft]

OK, so even being new to this move (I don't seem to experience it at UB, even at higher limits) I'd heard enough about how they love it at Party.
So of course I had to Raise. When he 3-bet I went "Uh oh!". But obviously couldn't fold, even though I figured I must be beat. [Which of course is the problem with the Raise if you get 3-bet and cannot fold].

He bet the blank River, and MHIG.
He had K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

The semi-bluff bet I can understand (though I think I could make a *very* good argument against it in this spot) but the semi-bluff 3-bet? Wow. That I am SO not used to.

So you all pretty much nailed the hand. While it is nothing unusual it certainly is for me. And I'm glad you all thought it was a clear Raise.
The previous two times I saw the move there that day, one was a Turned raggy two pair (43 in the BB), the other was a Turned Flush draw. So I'm starting to see how it's being used.

Thanks everyone for the input.
[Thanks about the avatar Joe. It's showing up here so I hadn't realised.]

[JohnShaft]

[ QUOTE ]
someone in the mid stakes forum described these pointless stop and goes as a "pleading call to get raised"

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Interesting point, I think Ulysses it was who said he now uses this stop and go with strong hands like flopped sets. Curious how the move evolves out of weakness, and it's now only really usable when you are strong.

[Yeknom58]

I think you're taking this "I need to adjust to party" thing just a little too far. What exactly if the problem with this hand. It looks like he's put you on a flush or AK and doesn't want to give you free cards. I don't expect to get 3-bet so I would raise the turn. Then mattering on the river card and UTG I might start to make the chicken noises.

[Kevroc]

Would it be so wrong to play a set this way HU?

Not saying its my MO but, since everyone wanted to raise... its food for thought.

[JohnShaft]

If I have AK then there isn't a lot of point in him betting imo. I have 3 outs to beat him. I'm reverse dominated. If I check the Turn, then fine bet the River and get another bet out of me. (Not crunching the numbers he should prefer that over me folding my AK to a Turn bet here)

What exactly is the problem, and am I overestimating adjusting to Party?
Considering he 3-bet semibluff after I raise him I don't think I'm even remotely overestimating the difference.
I barely ever remember someone putting in this much heat while still over a 2-1 dog, on any other site. [And not being classed as an utter LAG/Maniac]

[JohnShaft]

No, it wouldn't Kev.
That's the thing, if it's routine that people are making these semi-bluffs all over on Party, and correctly getting raised, the real value in a Stop and Go is with a STRONG hand.

[Yeknom58]

I'm thinking they don't want you to fold on the turn. If you had AK/flush draw he want's you to call a turn bet thinking you might check the turn and fold on the river unimproved.

Yea the 3 bet was pretty nutty. I'm just saying there are more laggy people on party but I don't really see how that obscured the play on this hand. I was thinking if you wanted to make adjustments it would be along the lines of when to value bet middle/bottom pair, knowing when someone is 3 betting with a flush draw or oesd, etc.

[nepenthe]

I can only add here that player notes on Party are CRUCIAL. Make notes of who's a habitual stop-and-goer and who loves to checkraise. Then try and classify those who stop-and-go with weak hands for information, and those who do it in order to 3-bet. I'd say these notes have saved me a minimum of 1-2 BB per 100 hands.

[JohnShaft]

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I'm just saying there are more laggy people on party but I don't really see how that obscured the play on this hand.

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No Yek, it doesn't. Except insomuch as when I'm 3-bet here I'm well beaten on most other sites, except agaisnt specific over LAG's and maniacs. Not that I ever make a habit of folding overpairs, even so.
At Party it seems like it would be insane to even think of folding to the 3-bet. Similar misplaced aggression occured there today when I played a couple of hours. It's that level of aggression that I am not used to.
It's like at other sites "assume sane until shown otherwise", whereas I think at Party that is a pretty dangerous assumption. You have to be prepared that they will put in a lot more with a lot less and act accordingly.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
He bet the blank River, and MHIG.
He had K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

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to quote myself in this thread, "raise. he picked up a flush draw." they bet the turn every time they pick up a good draw. just like the stop and go with trips.