QT...what a biotch

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise this preflop just about every time.

I think raising the flop is better but waiting till the turn isn't horrible.

Given your line you need to value bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you raise QTo, I'm assuming you raise KT and K9o, and A8o. What is your VPIP? 33? 30?

[/ QUOTE ]

My vpip is 31 as of late.

[ALL1N]

[ QUOTE ]
I think raising the flop is better but waiting till the turn isn't horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think this?? IMO, waiting for the turn is a lot better.

[wheelz]

You just figure 91 hands of "folds a lot post flop" isn't enough of a read to make this a not easy value bet?

[NLSoldier]

Thats a good question, I guess its just sort of my standard line right now in this situation so I'll try to come up with a few reasons.

1. There will be some turn cards, namely Aces and Kings, that I may decide to puss out and not raise.

2. I think you make more from hands like meduim pairs because they will always calldown after a flop raise and will often even put in 3bets while drawing very slim.

3.I don't feel that spectacular about my hand vs a 3bet out of the blind against my utg raise, and I would really hate getting 3bet on the turn.

4. I guess I'm just more of a flop pounder [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] And since I will often be raising the flop with a draw or overcards or whatever, then I also need to be raising it with some pretty strong made hands.

I'm glad you asked that question and I'd really like to hear some of your reasons for waiting till the turn, although I'm pretty sure I for the most part already know what they are.

I guess my biggest reason is probably number 3. If the turn bricks and I raise and get 3bet I really hate it. And if I raise the turn and he folds I feel like I probably didn't extract the max.

[ALL1N]

Hey, thanks for addressing it. Here are a few of my thoughts.

My number one reason for waiting for the turn is (obviously) the extra small bet extracted when ahead and called down. The times I raise the flop are when against an extremely aggressive opponent who I would happily raise again on the turn if 3-bet (on the flop).

[ QUOTE ]
1. There will be some turn cards, namely Aces and Kings, that I may decide to puss out and not raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see this as an advantage in waiting until the turn. We get to see if our hand holds strong before pumping it.

[ QUOTE ]
2. I think you make more from hands like meduim pairs because they will always calldown after a flop raise and will often even put in 3bets while drawing very slim.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is somewhat game dependant I guess. The games I've been playing are very aggressive, and as a consequence middle pair is very rarely folding to a turn raise anyway, so it is a non-issue.

[ QUOTE ]
3.I don't feel that spectacular about my hand vs a 3bet out of the blind against my utg raise, and I would really hate getting 3bet on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This bit I don't like. It seems like you're sacrificing value to avoid a tough decision that in reality isn't that tough. A turn 3-bet should usually mean we fold before showdown.

[xLukex]

I raise the turn and spend my extra 3 bucks at Taco Bell.

This is my play almost all the time. Although I play 1/2 mostly, people will still pay me off to the river with middle/bottom pair.

It's wonderful.

[Noodles]

[ QUOTE ]
fold this preflop. I only raise based on table composition and if it's suited.



[/ QUOTE ]
yea i hate QTo in 1st seat ,i dump it too,
Actually im not so sute what to do with JTo or JQo
i dump JTo and raise JQo,is that ok?

[PokerBob]

turn=icky

[Noodles]

[ QUOTE ]
like raising the flop, because when a card like the K of clubs comes on the turn I won't want to raise anymore.


[/ QUOTE ]

yep when you have TP on a kind of co-ordinated board with low cards my standar now is to raise instead of waiting for the turn to raise,

Because if an over card does fall or the 3rd flush or str8 card falls the flop bettor may just check to you and youve missed an extra 1/2 BB,
if those cards fall and he still bets into you and you raise,he calls, are you still sure you have the best hand?

also when in 1st position on those type flops ive given waiting for the tunr to CR for the reasons above,mainly for fear of him checking thru the turn

[irishpint]

here's a question...

you were three bet from BB and flop top pair with QT. Is there a chance you won't take it to showdown? I mean, if I raise the flop and get 3 bet is there ever a time to call and c/f the turn? would calling the flop, and then folding the turn (to the flush coming in and the overcard) be ok? If i call the turn then I have to call the river, IMO.

Back to the hand. If I get 3bet on the turn I think I can lay it down (i hope I can...I should be able to). In this case I got a free showdown out of the deal, which is nice, since I wanted to show it down. At the same time, if I'm ahead when I raise I'd still be ahead on the river so probably wouldn't want to take the free card, correct?

If my read was over a larger selection of hands I think betting the river would have been a better play- part fold equity and part value bet- what does it mean when a TAG calls your turn raise and checks to you on the river- has he pussed out?