TT - when waiting to raise doesn't protect your hand

I understand the whole wait until the turn b/c our equity edge increases/decreases dramatically. Personally I don't think that this is the right situation for it. I look at it as risk vs. reward. We can guaruntee getting in one extra BB by raising the flop. We are likely going to call the turn and river unless things go really bad, b/c it is only 3 handed. For example, we're not going to fold just b/c an ace or a king hits. By waiting until the turn we give up a guarunteed 1BB for a potential 2BB that a turn raise would generate. But that assumes that 1) We will be bet into on the turn 2) We will get 2 callers on our raise 3) The turn card will be a card that we are comfortable raising. So I raise the flop.

I wait for the turn either a) If we think we can protect our vulnerable hand, which due to position is not going to happen here b) If the pot is more multiway and we feel more comfortable ditching the hand if a scare card hits. For example if this pot were 5 handed, I'd wait until the turn for a blank to hit before I raised.

[deception5]

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Isn't this exactly why we don't raise this flop?

If a blank does fall on the turn, we have a HUGE equity edge, whereas our edge might be small at best on the flop.

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This is more of an issue when there are a lot of players in the pot. There's a reasonable chance that a Q will not hurt our hand here where if there are 9 players in the pot a Q almost always kills our hand.

You said it much better and more succintly than I could.

[lautzutao]

Alright, that's understandable. I just assumed this was for large pots in general with draws on the board along with that potential for overcards.

[dvashun]

I fall on the wait for the turn side of this argument. I agree that there are a ton of cards that this hand does not want to see, but at this point in the hand the best situation you can hope for is the situation the OP mentioned. With an OESD, not containing a T, and a Flush draw, with the flush draw only containing one over, you are not the favorite. The range of hands at least has to contain these as possibilities. If UTG has a hand like 89s or A8 the TT becomes a slight favorite over the flush draw. However if the turn is a blank then TT becomes ~60 percent over the other two hands. I'd much rather call and wait before putting the hammer down when I have a greater edge.

[jrz1972]

This is basically straight out of SSHE.

Protecting your hand isn't an issue because there's no way you can protect anyway, so this is just a matter of getting maximum value for your hand. Raising the flop is +EV, but waiting to raise a blank on the turn is even more +EV.

[Paxosmotic]

It's page 187 of SSHE, people. I think anyone saying raise for value needs a reread of that entire chapter.

It's probably close either way. I think in a big multiway (5 handed +) pot you are quite possibly ditching the hand if you don't like the turn card. So it makes sense to get the raise in on the turn. In this 3 way pot, you are most likely seeing the showdown anyways, so I say get the raise in on the flop when you know you have the best hand. I think if the pot was 4 way or maybe even 3 way and the flop bettor was on your immediate right, I would likely wait for the turn as I could then protect my hand.

[jrz1972]

It doesn't matter whether you plan to fold to a scary turn card or not.

If the turn card is scary, you're going to wish you hadn't raised the flop. That's true whether you show the hand down or not.

If the turn card is safe, you're going to wish you could raise the turn. Again, this is true regardless of what you would have done in response to a scary turn.

Basically, you are going to regret raising the flop no matter what happens on the turn. Either you would want that sb back or you would want villain continuing to bet into you so you could raise.

[Paxosmotic]

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If the turn card is safe, you're going to wish you could raise the turn. Again, this is true regardless of what you would have done in response to a scary turn.

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Ding ding ding ding. Thread over, right there. That's why we wait until the turn. This needs to be quoted every 7 replies or so.