Deep stack theory

[Wayfare]

I didn't criticize at all; I posted my honest warning. If you want to take a shot, by all means do.

Remember, I don't have anything to lose or gain by you playing in the game; I just said the most helpful piece of advice that I could think of at the time.

Your reply is really uncalled for. I think my post conveys a lot of useful information, as well as the posts affirming my caution.

As for deep-stacks advice, I would check the archives for my "what's the best way to incorporate trickiness" post, as well as Matt Flynn's post about "ML4L Gets a New Bankroll" for help disguising your prelfop holdings and playing on deeper stacks.

My quick thoughts about deep stacks is not to get married to your one pair hands, bet more on the come instead of just when you are made, and accordingly incorporate leading into the field with a set or another made hand. Good luck once again.

[SmileyEH]

Give me a break. I can add no more than the standard big pairs go down in value etc. etc. I know the basics - all I was trying to say is that if you are asking questions like this it would seem he should not comfortable in a game like that, just as I would feel overmatched and out of my depth.

-SmileyEH

[fsuplayer]

cj-

I didnt mean to come off sounding like a dick, so i am apoligizing if I did. i think i was responding to your response to wayfare, who gave an honest (albeit curt) response.

I should have said:

If your BR can handle it, or you can replenish it w/o much trouble then, sure, give it a shot. esp. since you have played w these guys before.

no draws up front, (unless you have great posistion on a raiser in a multiway pot). play PP's from anywhere.

remember, AA and KK are only one pair. this could save your stack. in a game that size I would limp with AA or KK from up front 95% of the time. bc like many live games i have seen at that size, if you raise UTG, you may get four/five callers and you are out of position which i think is worse than a whiffed limp reraise.

dont hesitate to throw away TPGK if you either dont have position, or are against a good tricky/player.

you wont make much money in this game with TP hands; sets, straights and flushes will bring in the cash.

best of luck to you,

fsuplayer

oh yeah, check out ML4L, matt flynn's and el diablo's posts on higher NL, they are great.

[turnipmonster]

with 300BB you should be seeing a lot of flops and you can call raises with suited connectors and other stuff you'd have to dump in a 50BB game. I would avoid small suited connectors like 23s though.

the deeper you are, the more advantageous having position on your opponent is. if you have position on your opponent you should be more inclined to put them to the test, as position allows you to control the pot better if you get caught speeding [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

you will also sometimes need to make some pretty tough laydowns in a game this size, and read your opponents well to avoid getting trapped for all your chips. in smaller games you are a lot of times pot committed on the turn or river, but here people are going to have plenty left to bet and raise. so be ready to play good poker on the later streets, as you will probably run into some situations you are not familiar with. the phrase "don't go broke in an unraised pot" definitely starts applying to games of this depth, since it is so cheap to get in preflop.

just an opinion, but I don't see the point in having a max buyin in a game like this. if I have to rebuy, I like to be able to buyin to cover my opponent.

--turnipmonster

[fimbulwinter]

come on wayfare, the guy knows who he's going to play against, can beat them in a shortstacked game and now wants a big overlay with deep money. help a brotha out...

poster: think about things like this-
the disparity of hands is leveled and the importance of position is huge. Think about a hand in terms of its ability to make the nuts when playing in LP (89o is fine from the button/co if there are limpers ahead, where on a 50BB stack i'd say it's a marginal fold, etc.) conversely, since such hands are now more valuable, hands like AA are less valuble, so keep the pot small as backing your 300BB stack with a non-setted PP is a great way to drop 3K. the deepstackedness dictates the play of more hands from late position and less importance of attacking/defending the blinds. play things on the button that you think you can really hurt someone with, it only takes one hand like that in a night to walk away a big winner.

fim

[coltrane]

[ QUOTE ]
I would avoid small suited connectors like 23s though.


[/ QUOTE ]
interesting, care to expound on that?....


what I was going to say to the initial poster was the following:
in the game that you're talking about, I'd rather have 64s on the button than AA UTG......

[edtost]

[ QUOTE ]
oh yeah, check out ML4L, matt flynn's and el diablo's posts on higher NL, they are great.

[/ QUOTE ]

also, check the older archives (high stakes holdem) for posts about the 10-10-20 game at lucky chances - tommy angelo and others had some great discussions back then.

[fsuplayer]

how do i get to these, they sound juicy. had no idea TA played NL. if so, might have to look more into those lessons of his.

[Lawrence Ng]

Hi Cjmewett,

First off, I commend for you taking a good opportunity and moving up to a bigger game if you feel you are mentally and bankroll-ly ready for it. There is nothing wrong with the questions you ask and if anything shows good level of understanding for this game.

I guess I can share my experiences because I also play a lot of live PL and NL 5/10 and 10/20 games.

First off I don't like the idea of a cap buy-in, but $3000 is a good cap if there was to be one.

First off, if you don't have Ciaffone's and Reuben's PL and NL Poker book I would strongly suggest you buy it. It has a lot of good literature with regards to play with different size stacks.

But to summarize in cliff notes form, first off you need to be aware of the nature of the game first. I've played in a lot of games where they are extremely aggressive and loose. These games have huge variances, but I doubt you may be in one.

With deep stacks, small pairs play well as do huge pairs. Just don't get married to the huge pair without a set. Suited connectors play well too. Ax suited does well if you know your opponent will pay you off. Implied odds are very opponent.

If you know your opponent has AA or KK and won't pay you off if you flop a set, don't bother calling pre-flop. You won't get the implied odds.

Pre-flop all-in coups are not uncommon still if there's big pair vs. big pair and 2 guys decide to battle it out.

Deep stacks with position is the ultimate weapon. Use position well. AK offsuit and AQ offsuit are highly overrated in NL and PL games.

Most of the stuff I say here is very general and is covered in Ciaffone's and Reuben's book.

If your game is more loose and aggressive it's a whole other story about how to play the game. I could offer my insights on it too if you want, but I won't beat on another essay here unless neccesary.

Good luck and have fun.

[Tommy Angelo]

"as a matter of general theory, how should the increased depth affect my overall strategy?"

Given your lack of experience at those depths, I would suggest this:

Go slower than they do, especially before the flop. With non-pair hands preflop, raise lesser amounts and less often than seems right.

Slow down after the flop, usually to a stop. Imagine hitting your best card on the turn. Will you want to put in a bunch of chips? If no, then don't put chips in on the flop either.

Proceed with extreme caution when somebody else overbets or overcommits and you have a really good hand. He can't have that straight, can he? Could he have called my preflop raise with 10-7 offsuit? Answer: if the pot is X, and the opponent commits 30X, then yes, he can have it, and he does. Or if he doesn't, well fine. Take the X.

Don't go stupid broke. Take a breath right at the spot when you are used to just firing. Keep your dick in your pants, keep the pots small, and don't overcommit. I think these are the most profitable things to focus on at virgin deepstack. You'll get laid soon enough. No need to rush it. Good luck.


Tommy