noninteresting hand similiar to the bottom pair one

[cartman]

(Previous post deleted because I didn't realize CO folded before the action got to me)

I definitely just call down here. I have been thinking alot about situations like these and it seems to me that we should be able to somewhat determine the optimal flop line by the probability that we are ahead on the flop combined with our estimate of his hand range and the board cards. I don't know where we would draw the line though. It seems logical to me that out of position with a showdownable hand we would need somewhat higher than 50% chance of being ahead on the flop to make a checkraise the flop and bet the turn line more profitable than just calling down unimproved provided that our opponent will usually fire again on the turn regardless of his hand.

Is that too weak?

Thanks,
Cartman

[bobbyi]

Is there any merit to check-calling the flop and then leading the turn?

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
Is there any merit to check-calling the flop and then leading the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, but its less likely he'll play back at you with garbage if you use that line.

but, for metagame, if you do that with mid pairs, you need to do that with draws too, because i dont think you make the ev lost by giving up 1 bet on the flop just by playing.

[baronzeus]

standard.

[cartman]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't mind a flop CR here. If he thinks you're tough, a turn CR is just what he'll be expecting if you check-call-check, so I think he'll be checking a fair few hands behind on the turn (the ones that you wanted to CR).

[/ QUOTE ]

I have basically stopped check-calling the flop and check-raising the turn with my strong hands head up against a preflop raiser. Since I often checkraise with everything from quads to a gutshot, it makes it pretty difficult for my opponent to put me on a hand.

Does this mean that I'm not tough?

Say it ain't so!!!!!!

Cartman

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't mind a flop CR here. If he thinks you're tough, a turn CR is just what he'll be expecting if you check-call-check, so I think he'll be checking a fair few hands behind on the turn (the ones that you wanted to CR). This means it's either check-call-donk or CR flop. If you CR flop your external range includes a lot of draws; if you check-call-donk then he'll put you on exactly what you hold.

[/ QUOTE ]


yes i agree. c/r bet is far better than c/c bet because you want him to play back with his Q9o or whatever.

[TStoneMBD]

i really hate that line against tough opponents to play against. all1n makes an interesting point that if i do that hell put me on exactly what i have. when i checkraise the flop i could have any pair, any draw and maybe even ace high at this point. still though, having almost 50% pot equity after flopping my pair makes it seem like checkraising just doesnt get me anywhere. what value am i getting out of it? all that happens is that im raised when behind and called down or folded when ahead. if i could comfortably fold to a turn raise or something i would like it more, but i think im maximizing his positional advantage by playing aggressively against him when i am showdown bound.

[JDalla]

I actually used to always check-call this all the way and it worked ok. Recently I've been playing it more aggressively (c/r flop, donking turn, and often donking flop).

The problem I have is that so many players will bluff raise the flop or turn whenever you play back at them (and they raised preflop), that it's almost dangerous to do without a great hand, because then you have to decide to make the laydown or call them down.

Often in the situation I will donk the flop, they auto raise, and I call down unimproved (they sometimes check the river). I don't know if this play is advisable, because too often they will catch up by the river and value bet you again.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
if i could comfortably fold to a turn raise or something i would like it more, but i think im maximizing his positional advantage by playing aggressively against him when i am showdown bound.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the key problem here. What about a c/r, c/c line? It's an odd one to be sure, but I think he'll be betting the turn when you check if he's the type that will be raising when we bet sufficiently that we need to see a showdown.

Honestly there's nothing wrong with check-call all 3 streets(or donking the river) because aggressive players will bet far more hands than they will call with...as you said he will fold his hopeless hands if we c/r but may bet them again on the turn for FE and because it's an easy for him to fold to a raise.

Surf

[TMFS9]

[ QUOTE ]
What about a c/r, c/c line

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems like an interesting line, unusual for sure, but I think might actually have a good bit of merit if we feel that villan will raise worse hands here a good percentage of the time and will almost always bet when checked to. When you get to the river, what are you doing donking?