An interesting hand. Play my cards for me.

[callydrias]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, but you're ignoring the case where neither of them have a K. I think this is a definite possibility in a 3-handed game with these villains.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not ignoring that possibility. In that case we win. If we raise, we'll pick up 1BB from BB because SB will almost certainly fold. If we call, we'll pick up 1BB from SB. The pot is the same size in either case. If we win, we win - great! My question is: If we chop, which decision (raise or call) has a higher expectation?

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
SB will never fold a King there. I hope you wouldn't either!

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know that. And, no, I wouldn't, but that's not the question. My point was, isn't it worth taking a shot at it, as you're risking .5BB to win half the pot?

[ QUOTE ]
Most everyone said raise/call/call because there isn't much to debate here. Alot of people gave you good reasons why raising the turn is bad, as well as why calling the river is good. You are trying to find fancy ways to make bad plays and justify them with "aggressive is good".


[/ QUOTE ]

Not much to debate? There are 110 posts in this thread that say that's a load.

I have presented carefully thought-out and, I believe, cogent arguments as to why I took the line I took, which arguments have been agreed with by some respected posters. Resorting to belittling those arguments, because you disagree with them, accomplishes nothing but reducing the quality of the debate as a whole.

[GrunchCan]

I enjoyed this hand -- even if it was in the wrong forum, n00b. (J/K) And I'm happy to say that, even after a month off, I play every street the same and didn't even have to really think about it much. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

ni han

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know that.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should.

The reason we call is that it's likely, but not definite, that one of my opponents has a King. If both have a King there's nothing to be gained from raising. If one has a King, I gain a lot more by calling, because it prevents a situation in which one of them will have to call two bets hoping to chop three ways. This is not a huge deal in the event that SB has a King and BB doesn't, as BB is retarded and might very well call two playing the board. It is a huge deal for when BB has a King and SB doesn't, as SB can find a fold for two cold fairly easily. When neither opponent has a King, it's likely that SB will fold and BB will call my raise -- NOT 3-bet -- and I will gain 1 bet.

So, let's sum it up: argument for raising.

SB has King, BB does not: +1BB (2 more BB from BB, split in half).
BB has King, SB does not: +0BB.
Neither has a King: +1BB (my 3-bet folds SB, and BB calls).

If we weight these evenly, I earn .66BB from raising.

Calling:

SB has a King, BB does not: +1BB (SB will 3-bet, BB will call, I cap, all will call. Divide by two).
BB has a King, SB does not: +1BB.
Neither has a king: +1BB.

If we weight these evenly, I earn 1BB. There are some variables to account for in this, like the times SB decides we're retarded and calls two cold playing the board (it won't happen often), and the times BB caps playing the board after SB folds, but neither of these will happen often enough to justify raising over calling here IMO.

Rob

[AdamL]

My perception is that when people think they might be chopping they tend to go nuts, because anything that can get someone to fold increases your profits enormously, while you only loose a very small amount to rake if you are called.

Is that just incorrect? Or maybe just not correct at 3-handed 5/10?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
My perception is that when people think they might be chopping they tend to go nuts, because anything that can get someone to fold increases your profits enormously, while you only loose a very small amount to rake if you are called.

Is that just incorrect? Or maybe just not correct at 3-handed 5/10?

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with that thought is that it's pretty obvious when some is/isn't chopping on this board to a non-retarded player. Bad players might raise on this river playing the board, or really really good players/handreaders might raise if they knew their opponents didn't have a King -- but given the board and my play throughout the hand, I think that people "going nuts" with just the board is very unlikely. I think it's very likely (though not definite) that SB could fold a non-chopping hand on this river for 2BB.

Rob

[bozlax]

Ok, I agree with the math, and understand your point, calling is definitely the +EV play. You don't _ever_ think about risking .34BB, here, to gain 6BB? Just to mix it up, perhaps?

[droolie]

I raise the river. I don't think you see SB fold as much as you do. People hate folding when the board is likely to play.