ehhhh....position......how great is it?

Jimbobobb · #1 09-07-2004, 11:19 PM

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.

ahhhh...just what I like to see when I post!!

UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, Hero (poster) calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

I'm getting massive odds, with all these people coming along....but I honestly contemplated folding because of my god awful position on this pre-flop raiser. I know some might say this is great, as I can raise right after him, but I'm thinking with J9 suited I'm really looking for a flush or some monster, and I want to be trapping people for bets, not making them go away. How much should this play in my decision to play this hand? I know even asking this seems silly with that many limpers, but really I honestly considered folding for a second. Then I realized I'm LAG and considered 3-betting.

Flop: (17 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (8 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, Button calls, SB folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Kind of just what I was afraid of :-/ I want people staying, so I'm not raising this, even though the pot is huge - stupid or no? Think they'll all come along anyway cause the pot is massive? Looking back, everyone is getting 10:1 on their call....so any decent player would call...ehhh...I'm gonna say this should have been a raise.

Turn: (11 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG+2 bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero raises, Button folds, UTG+2 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls.

Great, early position raise - rest of the hand plays itself.

River: (18 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+2 bets, MP3 calls, Hero raises, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 24 BB

So really are my concerns justified, or am I thinking about this wayyyy too much, especially at this level?

Greg J · #2 09-07-2004, 11:36 PM

This is a good preflop call. No question about it.

The flop... no offense, but you deserve a beating for not betting here. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I'm glad you realize in retrospect you should have bet.

You HAVE to bet here. Why?: 1) (Most important) for value. 2) (the cool side effect) Possible free card on the next street. You would rather not have to call another bet on the turn if you miss.

The rest look good. I'm not sure if you meant sracasm in the titular line of your post or not, but this hand is a nice illustration of the advantages of position.

Jimbobobb · #3 09-07-2004, 11:43 PM

not betting, raising - the problem here is I face everyone with two cold.....which pretty much any decent holding should call with those odds....but I don't know how the rest of this table plays, and if they're so weak they'll all fold to my flop raise. I think I should do it just because it's most likely the correct play for free card reasons, value betting reasons, etc etc. But I really don't want to just be heads up with this draw, even though the pot is massive - kinda contradictory, but that's how I felt.

Jaran · #4 09-08-2004, 01:19 AM

Hey Jim,
I know there are going to be those who disagree w/me, but I like the call on the flop. Given the penchant for party players to "peel one off" on the flop, but not call 2 cold, you really don't want to be facing them with a raise here. You want their money going into the pot, and calling gives them the impetus to do so.

-Jaran

Yerma · #5 09-08-2004, 01:56 AM

Hi Jimbobobb,

I think your concern comes into play only when you flop a gutshot, everyone checks to the raiser who bets, and it is now up to you to act. That is a tough spot. Also, what if you flop middle pair on a relatively dry board, everyone checks to the raiser who bets, and you are next to act! You are right, that would stink.

Your compensation is this: to get into these situations where you have to make a hard decision, you are getting half price preflop. You *know* it would be a profitable plan to call the raise preflop and only play on if you flop a high quality draw (the flush draw or open-ended). So you can afford to leave your tough decisions until 'game-time' when the you actually flop a weaker draw.

I think you are right to consider 3-betting preflop, and for sure you would have been right to raise the flop as it stood.

afk · #6 09-08-2004, 03:00 AM

I raise the flop.

Yes, I want callers - which you'll get a lot of the time at Party $.5/1, but I also want a free card on the next betting round if I whiff.

flexus · #7 09-08-2004, 06:30 AM

I think you should raise that flop. Even though you are forcing the field to call two cold I think you will figure to have at least one more caller than the original bettor. Thus, this is a value raise. And we love those, don't we?

Also, as many others have said, if a raise clears the field to the button that's good because you will get a free river, but the main reason to raise here is to load the pot when you have the best of it.

cnfuzzd · #8 09-08-2004, 08:12 PM

RE the flop call.

I think most importantly, this pot has already gotten into the territory of being large. Raising will not only do all those other cool things like free cards, but also, knock out other players, thus increasing your chance at winning. IMO

peace

john nickle

helpmeout · #9 09-09-2004, 07:10 AM

Raising the flop is crazy. Sorry I just don't agree with people who say this, if you have TPTK then you would raise.

You have a flush draw, you want callers, who cares about maybe getting a freecard. You want someone to hit 2 pair or better and bet out not thinking about the flush.

If you can trap two or 3 people then yes raise but here you have no one trapped. Bottom pairs and gutshot straights arent cold calling 2bets, I want those guys calling or betting when I hit my flush.

I'd play it exactly the same.

Cerril · #10 09-09-2004, 08:19 AM

I think the call/raise on the flop is entirely dependent on a table read. I've had tables where two cold on the flop will get an easy 5 callers, some where you end up with two or three. Without a read I think being directly after the raiser you need to just make a snap judgement. I think with six left to act, two bets probably still manage you the required number of callers to the turn. Yes, if you hit your flush you want to have a lot of people staying with you, but this gives anyone who sees the turn better odds to follow it down, especially with a lone Qd or Td (the last would be lovely) or even two pair.

I'd probably have raised it just because of the sheer size of the field (most tables with 8 people to the flop with a raise from the CO will have five willing to call two cold on the flop).