How to know when your up against 2 pair?

Spy021 · #1 09-05-2004, 02:04 PM

I seem to be having a tough time playing when I'm up against two pair, when I have TPTK. Here's a recent hand that I played where I ran into the same situation.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (7 handed)

Preflop: Rookie is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button raises, Rookie calls, BB calls, UTG calls, CO folds.

Called the raise by the button, because I suspected he was trying to steal the blinds, even though there was another caller (UTG).

Flop: (9 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Rookie checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Button bets, Rookie calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Rookie checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Button checks.

River: (6.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Rookie checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Button calls, Rookie calls, BB calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

Any insight is much appreciated!

Sent · #2 09-05-2004, 02:19 PM

Raise this flop, you probably have the best hand and a backdoor flush draw, without raising it is hard to know what you are up against.

-Sent

citizenkn · #3 09-05-2004, 02:32 PM

You have top pair top kicker, why are you playing so passively? That's a great flop for you---bet and/or raise it!

I think you should 3-bet pre-flop, then bet out on the flop. But if you're going to just call the pre-flop raise, then check-raise the flop. If you get 3-bet by the button, then maybe you can put him on two pair (unlikely given the pre-flop action) or a higher pocket pair.

In answer to your specific question, you can never know what kind of hand you are up against until you start putting in some raises or bets of your own. If you get raised or re-raised, then you can start putting people on hands. But playing the check-call game gets you no information at all---the way you played this hand, it's impossible to know what the other players had....

augie00 · #4 09-05-2004, 02:40 PM

You need to become more agressive. What you're doing here is called weak-tight and by playing this way you'll miss out on a lot of money in the long run. Flat calling the raise preflop is fine, but you must bet the flop and if raised, 3-bet. Your hand is vulnerable to any K, spades, or straight draw, and at this level it's certainly reasonable not to discount those hands drawing. You need to bet out on the turn and the river too.

Judging by the title of your post, your opponent must have had QT, and from time to time that will happen and you will lose money on those hands. However, you must not let that hinder your agression, because most of the time you will have the best hand, and if you play it this way every time, you will miss out on bets in the long run.

The best way to find out if you're ahead or behind is to raise. If your opponent plays back at you again, you can usually safely fold.

Quercus · #5 09-05-2004, 03:06 PM

With no read on the button, a call with AQo on the SB is probably ok. (Me, I'd probably raise it up against a bunch of limpers and a button raise though, but I'm sure it could be argued either way.)

On the flop you have TPTK, bet. If you get raised, that's your first indication that your queens are no good, but you should still win enough to make it worth calling or raising.

You could even check-raise it to get some extra money into the pot. If you get re-raised on your check-raise, then the danger signs should start flashing.

You're going to get beat a lot, but if you wait until you have the absolute nuts to play aggressively, you're going to find poker a miserable experience. TPTK is always a long term money-maker.

No single victory or defeat on a hand is important. The important thing is to push hard on those hands which are long term +EV and dump those that are not.

As far as knowing when you are up against two-pair, there's no way from the flop to make that assumption. Whatever the button raised with, the odds of it being QT are fairly low. One of the limpers could certainly have it, but the limpers can always have anything. You can't worry about that per se - for every three times they crush you on a draw to a bad pre-flop hand, you'll win one big pot that more than covers it.

Spy021 · #6 09-05-2004, 03:10 PM

You are correct, I did lose this to Q's & T's. Although UTG (who won) checked it on the flop and the river, this led me to believe that he held at least a Queen. I don't know that even if I did bet into him, he'd have played back at me. Thanks for the insight so far.

ThunderAces · #7 09-05-2004, 03:40 PM

First off there were 2 other callers, so stealin the blinds less likely. But being only seven handed u should 3 bet with this monster.
If you have a tight image at the table(which by the looks of it you do) either the BB or utg could fold. Which is optimal for AQ(plays well short handed). Imagine playin 2 pair in the way he did. Is it possible he folds for the 3rd bet before the flop. Even if he doesn't he a huge dog against ur hand. Get the money in.

I would c/r the flop and bet each street till someone made me think my hand may not be the best. If I'd played the preflop like you.
Otherwise I would prob just bet out.

Jaran · #8 09-05-2004, 05:08 PM

Hey Spy021,
If you suspect the button of stealing here, then you should 3bet the flop. However, I would need a read on him that he's capable of this kind of play, as most players at this level have no idea what a blind steal is. I think the cc here is the worst choice, with raising 2nd and folding prolly the best choice. In the hand, even with your cc, you really should c/r the flop, especially given your relative position to the pf raiser. If he 3bets, well, then you have a decision to make.

-Jaran